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Working as a Lawyer in Cryptocurrency With Andrew Bull, Esq.


As an early adopter of Bitcoin, Andrew Bull, Esq. is a knowledgeable lawyer in the cryptocurrency space. He is the Founding Partner of Bull Blockchain Law, Philadelphia’s first law firm dedicated to cryptocurrency. He also founded Titan Ventures, which was a cryptographic mining and hosting business. His early work was in government and law, including extensive time in political campaigns and a position as a Research and Writing Specialist for the US Department of Homeland Security.


Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

  • How Andrew Bull entered the cryptocurrency space early on
  • The difficulties of starting a law firm that works with blockchain
  • Andrew’s most significant challenges that helped him grow his firm
  • Why it’s essential to understand crypto before diving in
  • Which mentors changed the way Andrew approaches cryptocurrency
  • What’s a typical day at Bull Blockchain Law?
  • The craziest clients that Andrew’s had so far
  • Where Andrew grew up and what led him to his career

In this episode…

Do you want to get into the cryptocurrency space, but you’re not sure how? It sounds interesting, but you’re not sure if you should because you don’t know the risks it may involve. It’s helpful to have someone who can navigate the technology with you.

Despite its growing acceptance, cryptocurrency is still the new Wild West for many people. Because of its rapid expansion, most people are unfamiliar with the full extent of the technology. There is plenty of misinformation floating around, which makes it even more confusing for newcomers. Fortunately, there are lawyers helping illuminate the legal parameters of the new field. Andrew Bull is one such lawyer, having founded his own law firm dedicated to blockchain and cryptocurrency. His industry experience and legal expertise make him a perfect candidate to explain the subject.

Michael Renfro takes the time to sit down with Andrew Bull, Esq., the Founding Partner of Bull Blockchain Law, to discuss the intersection of the law and blockchain. The two dive into topics of cryptocurrency, the common pitfalls of the technology, and how Andrew’s law firm helps its clients. They also touch on his personal life and the decisions that led him throughout his career. Find out the rest by tuning into this episode of 15 Minutes!

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, where we deliver tailor-made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential.

To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. At Gladiator Law Marketing, we use artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition.

To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com or schedule a free marketing consultation. You can also send an email to Adam@gladiatorlawmarketing.com.

Episode Transcript

Intro  0:01  

You’re listening to 15 Minutes, where we feature community leaders sharing what the rest of us should know but likely don’t.

Michael Renfro  0:12  

Hello, everyone, Michael Renfro here I’m the host of 15 Minutes share your voice where we talk with top notch law firms and lawyers about what it takes to grow a successful law firm. The episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, where we deliver top notch services to help accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential. To have a successful marketing campaign, you really need to make sure you’re getting and to make sure you’re getting the best ROI. Your firm needs to have a better website and better content. At llama excuse me a better law marketing, we use artificial intelligence as well as machine learning, and decades and actually, it’s closer to centuries of experience to outperform the competition. To learn more, simply go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com. Or you can reach out to me directly. Either way, if you would like to do a free consultation that is available. If you want to reach out to me directly. Again, that email address or the website is Gladiator Law Marketing, or you can do it directly at Michael MICHAEL@gladiatorlawmarketing.com law marketing, and I’ll schedule an appointment for you. With that, today, our guest is and you know, this is so embarrassing, but I ended up scheduling it with your paralegal. And I think you told me your name right here at the beginning and I’ve talked to you but your name escapes me as I sit here and get ready to introduce you. So would you introduce yourself? I know you’re in the crypto, the crypto currency is a your law practice, but my apologies.

Andrew Bull  1:40  

no good. So my name is Andrew Bull. And as the name fits Bull Blockchain Law is the name of the law firm is awesome. Law. It’s a law firm that’s completely focused on as you pointed out the cryptocurrency and blockchain industry.

Michael Renfro  1:55  

So real quick, just before we even get into it, how long? You know, crypto is I know, relatively new, but how long have you been? How long has bull been around? And how long have you been doing this?

Andrew Bull  2:04  

Yeah, for sure. So I’ve been in the crypto industry since like 2011 2012. And I worked on the tech side originally, I ran a crypto mining company as well as a crypto Investment Fund, and then transitioned over the legal side. And I was writing about it in law school and then launched the firm in 2017. So we’ve been a law firm since then, that was really kind of where the area of law started to grow in the context of there actually being regulation as well as judicial rulings, things along those lines. So prior to that there really wasn’t any area or kind of consistency in terms of standards and practices. So now fast forward today, and we have a whole industry.

Michael Renfro  2:41  

Well, yeah, it’s kind of funny. I tell people even today, I mean, even though there are some laws, it’s the closest thing to the wild, wild west right now, just because it’s so it’s just so new, right? I mean, it was literally when he got gold rush, you know, a few years ago, before, before the laws were there. And now it’s still it’s still just, it’s a crazy world. So let’s kind of dive right into it. Because that really leads me into this. I know that that’s how you got started in crypto, and and I kind of get the impression that you were already going to law school when you found crypto.

Andrew Bull  3:14  

Yeah, yep, exactly. And so while I was in law school, I wrote about the regulation Well, the lack thereof, because there wasn’t any real laws or any type of state recognition of the industry, just because actually, I was interested in the space and then was working on it in a non legal context. And so experiencing there being no lawyers in the space, as well as no real wall, that was kind of something once I published that I thought, hey, I think that this is going to grow. And as a result, started kind of representing clients in the space because back then it was a lot more small, in the context of interacting with other clients, you just see a lot of the same people. And so we started representing some of those smaller clients. And now obviously, fast forward to today. And there’s a lot more clients in the space, a lot more different areas in the industry as well. So

Michael Renfro  4:01  

no doubt, but I can imagine that some of those clients that were small in the beginning if they’re in the space still today, they become some of them probably become, if you will, giant. Yeah. I mean that sincerely, right. Now, yeah, kind of. It’s wild to see startups kind of transform like that. So let’s go back before because my my gut feeling here tells me that you were not originally going to do this as your when you when you went to law school. So what what, what had what idea? Was it originally that had you want to become an attorney?

Andrew Bull  4:32  

So I worked actually in politics before and wanted to as well as the federal government and a non legal capacity. And so I wanted to go into government. And I was really interested in constitutional law. I was interested in kind of how governments work specifically at the federal level here in the United States. And so I had worked for a couple of different individuals who were candidates and they had all gone to law school and so they thought that hey, this is a good trajectory. This is the good path. So that initially sparked my interest. And interestingly enough, like fast forward to today, we help state legislatures draft legislation that they can propose that makes sense for blockchain and crypto. So, so that was my initial interest in law school. And then in law school, that’s where I started diving into the crypto side. And it just kind of took me from

Michael Renfro  5:18  

there. Yeah, I have a belief that everything ends up working out the way it’s supposed to, you know, you probably never saw this, but this is exactly where you were supposed to be. Like it was, it was just taking you right there. Which is I mean, it seems like that to me anyway. So let’s kind of talk about this then. Because it’s really duel here. And what I mean by that normally, I would really only ask about law, but crypto is so new, what were the early days of both? You being in crypto, and as well as the early days of the law firm learning how to navigate this, this world? That is it was really a navigated at that point. I mean, you kind of you guys, you know, in many ways, we’re like, the early explorers, if you will,

Andrew Bull  5:59  

for sure, yeah, lots of trial and error. 100%. And like, on the on the tech side, like the, for those if anybody knows how crypto mining works, like it has changed drastically over time as well. And so structuring a business and then launching that business was really very much a kind of a new endeavor in that context. And so we basically started kind of not mirroring a traditional entity, but instead tried to create a tech company that was just mining crypto. And then on the legal side, it was really about Hey, okay, how do we try to deduce from traditional laws, like how regulators or legislators or judicial decision makers would approach the industry? And what type of risk mitigation strategy can we glean from that? And I mean, even fast forward to today, and we’re still doing that, like, there’s no like major standards and practices, we still have no federal legislation. That’s

Michael Renfro  6:54  

what I mean by saying it’s still, it’s still much the wild, wild west in the sense that every day is a learning day. And you know, that within, you know, like, every month could have new regulations put in place and new. That I mean, it’s just it’s so it’s so I am only now learning it. I started learning it back in 2016. But I saw that original paper that went out that the doctor wrote, I believe it was a doctor, if I’m not mistaken. Satoshi Nakamoto. Yeah, I read that. And I got about halfway through and I was like, Okay, I’m not. It literally was just too much one because I, you know, as intelligent as I feel I am. That was just a whole nother language. And I feel like I need to get some more base knowledge before I before I jump into, and that’s kind of what I’m doing now. And the NF T’s have really, I’m sure you know a lot about those as well. But it seems like NF T’s are really becoming something that is going to be huge. Not just huge, let me say, a way of life in the future. We just, you know, we don’t see it yet. Now, because it’s not there for everybody. But eventually it will be I think, yeah, and what I’m reading, absolutely, and highlighting

Andrew Bull  8:01  

your kind of like the educational hurdle, I think that like everyone kind of has this inflection point at a different point where they realize, okay, I see some learn some real world value in this context, because it’s like, there’s there’s cryptocurrency and NF T’s and web three, and that whole aspect of the industry, and it’s all being built, obviously, on blockchain technology. And so that’s another component the industry as well, that when you combine those two together, it’s it’s pretty transformational from an internet perspective, and also like how we share information via the internet, because I always bring up this like, really quick example of, if I send you a PDF of information, how do you know that PDF is the original information that I put into that PDF? Right, we’re relying on a third party. Well, what happens when you remove that third party and rely more on a technical piece of technology that actually are facilitating that? Exactly?

Michael Renfro  8:51  

Yeah, I think a lot of people don’t understand how much security is involved with crypto. And you know, the way and I say that, because until I got my first wallet, you know, I was as novice and noob, as you could be. Right. And I just didn’t realize that it was that part of what crypto is, is the extreme security of it, which adds a whole new layer of like you say, what you’re sending through what you’re what you’re giving someone else and trusting that they get what you sent. Exactly, yeah, right. Yep. You know, with that, what was the biggest challenge that you had overcome, you know, personally or professionally when it comes to? Because I this one is the way the question is, but it really pertains to you with because, you know, it’s both your personal world, as well as your your business world in the sense that you have a crypto mining and you’re, you’re doing a law firm. So what’s the biggest challenge that you think you’ve had to overcome with

Andrew Bull  9:44  

that? For sure, yeah. So I think one of the largest issues is really trying to do some type of clear path forward from a regulatory standpoint. So we get these snippets probably every like six months from governmental regulators here. In the United States, as well as abroad, and then we kind of have to package them all together, and then come to clients and say, Hey, this is what we think you should do from a risk mitigation perspective, you’re operating in the industry, you have some type of product or service or something along those lines, how are you going to properly implement that with the mindset of mitigating risks, because there are a lot of risks associated with like launching a token or something along those lines. And so our biggest hurdle, which still is holds true today, is really kind of packaging that and then synthesizing that information. Because going back to your earlier point, this industry has a plethora of information from a technical perspective, that is extremely complicated. And honestly, like, only a very small percentage of people will ever understand the complexity entire Yeah, right. And so as a result, we’re having to try to figure out and navigate this route of being like, Okay, how do we dumb down for lack of a better term, a lot of this information, and then synthesize that and provide it in terms of service. So that’s definitely been our biggest hurdle from the beginning. And also the industry has changed so much to like, I think of, I have clients that when I first started out, I still have them, but the majority of my clients I didn’t. And as a result, there’s totally new industries, you think about like real estate, or FinTech or traditional finance, things like that areas that weren’t necessarily being disrupted by this technology five, six years ago. And they they are. And so that’s, I think that’s another real challenge in all of this is having to not just understand that technology, but then dive into one of these specific industries where it applies, and learn everything in that industry, and then combine it together and bring it back to the table. So that’s definitely one of the biggest challenges.

Michael Renfro  11:39  

Yeah, I would imagine, you know, it’s funny, because you were talking about it, you know, have you ever heard of, I believe it was called Greek fire. You ever studied Greek fire here, it was an old weapon. It’s one of those old, you know, biblical type weapons that they and not not necessarily biblical, but just, you know, ancient Rome, or ancient Greece, excuse me. The bottom line of it was, is that no one person understood how it all worked, so that the enemy could never get it, right. But it’s funny, because blockchain, and crypto kind of remind me of that is like, no one person really understands this entire technology, you kind of pick a piece of it, that you become an expert in and understand that and understand how it relates to it. But not, you still don’t have full understanding of you know, the mechanisms and the complexities within each within each vertical, if you will, because that’s it is really, you know, you say it’s complex. And I think that’s, I wish there was a word that took it to another level because it is more than complex. To me, it’s like complex on top of complexity. Right? If that, if that makes sense.

Andrew Bull  12:40  

100%. Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree and true to the industry as well, because it expands so fast. It’s

Michael Renfro  12:46  

there’s always new areas. And so as soon as one thing gets done, it seems like that opens up five avenues of what if, what if, what if, and, and then people are just, you know, yeah, they’re bouncing on it. They’re not hesitating. That’s the that’s the other thing that I’m seeing is like, nobody’s nobody has a real hesitation, which again, the wild wild west factor, I bring that back, because it’s like they see it and they go for it. They don’t they’re not worried about either a the consequences or be anything else, because they just want to get involved and get into it as quick as possible.

Andrew Bull  13:18  

I see a lot of at least No, It’s spot on. And I think that again, like people can dive into the industry without having any educational background because there’s limitations to that. Because so I teach a blockchain and cryptocurrency law course at Drexel University’s law school and so nice,

Michael Renfro  13:36  

my my. That’s where my that’s funny. My cousin, graduated Drexel. Oh, nice. Yeah. My uncle and cousin, I forgot to tell you live in Philly, I forgot to mention Oh,

Andrew Bull  13:46  

nice. So I went to law school there as well. And so now I teach this course to like lawyers or students who are in law school. And this is the first time we’re seeing like people actually getting education before they dive into the right. And I think that’s so important at the undergrad level at the educational level, like, that’s huge. And that’s just starting to happen now in the last year or two years.

Michael Renfro  14:07  

Well, it’s funny, I mean, you know, it’s exactly what I told you. But obviously, before you said that, like I, I looked at this, I thought about getting in and then I said no, it’s not I’m not going to get into this until I have enough understanding of my pieces. And the funny thing one reason I’ve gotten into it as I have been gifted now like five different NF T’s because these the I’m sure you’ve seen that people are doing these NF T giveaways, like just constantly right now, right to get their, their projects out there. So I’ve ended up getting some of these and I’m like, Okay, that’s cool that I have them. I have a wallet, so I have them but they’re to me, they’re just still sitting on standby because I want to understand a the value to the differences between different NFT. And all you know, that just you get it. So it just it becomes it becomes something where you’re like, Okay, I mean, I haven’t but I don’t feel like I’m in it. And what I mean by that is I haven’t made any choices to purchase anything or put any money into it. And I’m not going to until I understand, you know,

Andrew Bull  14:59  

that’s the problem. sure my opinion and 90 people don’t take that approach. So

Michael Renfro  15:03  

no, that’s that’s my whole point. Yeah, I think I would I think it’s funny you say 90%, I think that’s probably spot on, more people are getting into it. Without any knowledge. They just someone says, Hey, man buy this. And they’re like, Okay, and then they follow their steps to do it.

Andrew Bull  15:19  

Which is why we need more legal clarity from regulators and legislatures, because there’s this consumer protection issue that’s going on right now in the industry. And you have these massive projects that fail and people are out there funds, and they launched into it without any education.

Michael Renfro  15:34  

It’s funny, one of the first things I love that you’re you have the name bull, and I didn’t bring it up yet. I was waiting for the right time. And I think it’s now one of the first things that I saw when I started looking at the NFT world specifically is that they consider they look at it just like stocks, there’s a bull and a bear. And they so you know, having that name is just spot on for so many reasons. Really good name. So

Andrew Bull  15:57  

yeah, it’s worked out it. It’s so funny. I had it for the month, obviously, my entire life. And

Michael Renfro  16:01  

like you say, dude, this was your life was leading you to this boy, if you can’t tell that, like, you didn’t even know, you know, but this is where it was all it was all heading here. It was planned out for you, Ben clearly. So what’s your proudest moment? And what I mean by that is the one that you know, the highlight that you feel like you have right now and and quite frankly, I feel like you have many more to come. But what’s the highlight up to date?

Andrew Bull  16:25  

Yeah, for sure. So we now have attorneys in every time zone in the United States. And I think that’s our largest accomplishment. Because I think for a long time, this was very much viewed as a solo practitioner based area where there’s just one lawyer who focuses in on it is hyper focused in the industry across the board. But going back to the earlier point that you made that we were talking about, there’s so much complexity now and siloed different areas that now there’s even attorneys that are in this space that are focusing on one avenue. Exactly. And so I would say that so we I mean, we are on the West Coast, we’re in the Central Time Zone, and we’re also on the East Coast now. And I think that that’s a testament to the industry growing and also becoming more specific in the context of what type of industries is disrupting.

Michael Renfro  17:10  

No, I I can I concur. I was like that. So with this industry, what are your who are your mentors? And what would be the one, if you want to give more than one, that’s fine. But what would be the one piece of advice that you feel like is most beneficial?

Andrew Bull  17:27  

It’s funny, because in the industry that I was in before I had a bunch of mentors, and this one is a little bit unique in that it’s been pretty difficult to find a mentor because

Michael Renfro  17:35  

of new because of its new.

Andrew Bull  17:39  

Yeah, so So I will say that there’s so there’s two individuals that I’ve interacted with for years in this industry, who I really respect. One of them. His name is Peter Van Valkenburgh. And he’s actually a writer for Coin Center, which is a nonprofit lobbying industry based NGO in DC. And he writes all these publications about the space and I’ve always enjoyed reading his material. And I think that he has a ton of time to just dedicate towards research. And it’s amazing. And, and so I see that as creating a lot of value to help solve that educational hurdle. So I don’t necessarily consider him a mentor, but very much somebody.

Michael Renfro  18:16  

Somebody that you I mean, I said, we’ve been a nonprofit, I imagine that a lot of this stuff is accessible free, just by doing a search for him and looking for this is a material.

Andrew Bull  18:26  

Right, right. And there’s also a non bias component to it as well, which is super refreshing because I think a lot of people have an agenda and they’re coming from the private side, one side and as a result, they’re it’s much more balanced. And then outside of that. I will say that, again, like there’s I

Michael Renfro  18:44  

literally says are few and far between I get it

Andrew Bull  18:47  

for sure. No, but the So Gary Gensler is now the commissioner of the SEC, and I think that while I have some critique over his approach to the industry, he understands the technology and I think that that’s really beneficial for regulation. I’d say

Michael Renfro  19:06  

I think it’s key, right talking about, you know, bringing the old school in with the new school and having them somehow young, the middle without doing this and rather, doing right doing that,

Andrew Bull  19:17  

right, yeah. And Hester Peirce, also known as crypto mom, she is a commissioner of the SEC. And she’s been the largest advocate for the industry, in terms of being like turning to the SEC and being like, I’m a part of this organization, we need to provide more clarity. And so if anything, like I see her as such an asset to this industry, she’s been massively helpful. I’ve been lucky enough to interviewer and talk with her about the developments in the industry. And as a result, I think that she’s kind of like top of my list in terms of people that are just like, very trying to kind of create that balance between Hey, this industry is legitimate. Even though if you read like Yahoo Finance every day, you’re gonna think that it’s not, but there are very much real world applications that are going on in this in Sreet that are legit.

Michael Renfro  20:01  

And this is, you know, I mean, I know we’re probably sound like we’re a what is it beating? beating a dead horse? I think is that is that the same? But I mean, the reality is it’s so new because of that you really don’t know. And let me just give you have, for instance, and I think you’ll understand but I really I really see this comparable to the iPhone. And what I mean by that the iPhone though is moved a little bit quicker only because it’s a piece of technology that is different, it’s easier to grasp for the whole world, right. But when that first came out, I remember showing people I remember watching Jobs’s first announcement, and I’m like this is going to he’s right, this is going to change this is going to not just it’s going to revolutionize the way that we communicate. And it’s going to change things to the point where we even set it back then like some of the changes are not going to be what you expect. And they’re not going to be what you like either this is going to change everything. Crypto is one of those things that is it is on that path, I think it’s going to be a little slower, simply due to its complexity. And that is the that is the only reason that it’s slower. Because an iPhone, no offense, he made that to where any idiot could pick up an iPhone and use it. Right? That was the beauty of it. Crypto is not at a point where any idiot can understand it and do well in it. Anybody can get into it. Right? And I mean, that’ll we’ve already talked about that. But few and far between actually excel in it right now.

Andrew Bull  21:26  

For sure. Yeah. And there’s there is that technical competency requirement that like if you talk about older generations, they just don’t have that they didn’t when they grow up in that environment,

Michael Renfro  21:35  

where again, so this will be a generate, you know, and I think, not that I like to quote him or anything, but I think Elon was one of the ones that talked about it, and many people have agreed because of that. And the fact of what it is so due to the nature of what it is, and due to the fact that the older group is not really going to understand it or be able to get on track just due to where they are. You’re gonna see a huge wealth a huge transfer of wealth because of that, for sure. Yep. Sorry. But that cuckoo only goes off when I say something crazy.

Andrew Bull  22:06  

It was spot on. So it was just so with your

Michael Renfro  22:14  

you have such a unique practice, what is a daily like something, you know, kind of give us just like a real quick, typical day?

Andrew Bull  22:24  

For sure. Yeah, so a lot of it is working with clients to make sure that they’re not breaking the law. And then also weighing in on kind of technical developments or aspects of their product or service or say they want to launch a cryptocurrency, whatever it is that they’re doing, or so they have a game that is based in NF T’s or so on so forth. Whatever it is they’re doing, we’re coming from the compliance side. So we’re making sure that all of their legal information them public facing is legitimate, is in line with prior traditional regulation, that they’re not running afoul of securities laws, banking laws, all that type of stuff. So the way that that manifests itself is really just communications with the client drafting documentation, and then also in a different vein, representing clients in court where disputes have arisen in this industry, and there has

Michael Renfro  23:12  

to do litigation as well. Yep, yep. Now, just a quick note to if somebody’s coming to you, I would imagine you have to know how to either A, put them in touch with someone you trust or be take care of copyrights, trademarks and patents as well.

Andrew Bull  23:27  

Exactly, yeah. So we have a lot of we have a whole corporate side to this service that is like we can start from day one. No entity, just talking would

Michael Renfro  23:37  

take them all the way through and take them all the way through. Yeah. Cool. That just dawned on me because of the fact that you’re, you know, you’re talking about the we’d already talked about, yeah, I know, there’s games in there. But you know, a lot of these games have definitely copyright and trademark and then some, some games even have the opportunity at patent if they are introducing a completely new form of anything, right. I had a patent myself, so I know what it takes you have to have, you know, so as soon as you said that, it just dawned on me, you guys can probably or if you if you don’t even handle it in house, like guaranteed you have a referral network that allows you to get the information or get somebody specific when you don’t have it like that if you don’t have that piece, especially now that you have so how many how many folks altogether are in the firm, if you don’t mind me asking just real quick. So we have 13 So we’re still a small like boutique, but that’s not 13 for a type of firm that you are. I mean, that’s baker’s dozen. That’s always one of my it’s my wife’s favorite number. So if that matters, if that gives you anything like it’s some people’s lucky number, man, I think it’s I think it’s great that you’re there. And obviously you’re not going to stop so I get that impression. So, here’s some funny questions. Just a few personal questions real quick. What some, and this is what most people do not know, right? So when you think about this, think about what most people don’t, don’t know, quirks, maybe strange habits or maybe Maybe a hobby.

Andrew Bull  25:03  

Yeah, so maybe it’s not that it’s not super interesting. I played soccer in college in Maryland, and played the majority of my life. But I mean, quarks are I’m just like a huge sci fi guy and which makes us industry that I’m in. So like a sci fi, sci fi reading since I was a kid, it has led me to this point as well, for sure, like these types of concepts, digital currencies, universal currencies, all that type of stuff has been embedded in my brain for a long time reading all the Sci Fi books. And so I think that that’s probably a more like quirkier thing about me is that I just can’t get enough of it.

Michael Renfro  25:39  

I’ve said it twice. I’m gonna continue to say it. You can either see it or not. But there’s so many signs that told me like, like, the way you had all these quirks and had all these tendencies already, to what you have become the representative of because you literally represent this industry, you know, and what I mean by that is you now like, it just all led you up to it. It’s kind of amazing, man. Yeah, one of the things I do say that I will say I love about cryptocurrency is the fact that it is a numbers based. The whole thing is based on numbers, which you brought it up and you said it, you snuck it in there, but I caught it. If there’s ever going to be a currency that can be used throughout the universe. This is one that can actually work like that, because it would just be I mean, it’s not it’s just blockchain. So it’s not. It’s not based on you know, gold is not based on something tangible or any, you know, that’s been our way for as long as we know, most, you know, what’s really funny is most people don’t even realize that our currency is still based on gold. I think that’s funny. If you talk to a lot of people and ask them, you know, where does the dollar get its value? They’re like, Oh,

Andrew Bull  26:52  

yeah, it was worth nine times out of 10. You’re gonna get the answer. I have no idea.

Michael Renfro  26:56  

Yeah, exactly. Or there’ll be like, it’s worth $1. Right. I mean, that’s, I got that one, too. So yeah.

Andrew Bull  27:03  

Well, I think to that point, too, there’s a financial literacy component to our industry as well, where we’re very, why is it? Right, and we’re also like, I mean, so much of our society, when I think back to my education, having way too many years of education, like the one thing that I never learned was a lot of financial literacy. And even if I’m a finance major, I still wouldn’t have gotten that exposure, right? Like, not many have to

Michael Renfro  27:24  

go out there and learn it, if you it’s not something that is provided, let’s put that

Andrew Bull  27:29  

away. Right. And there’s a reason behind that. Right. Like, let’s acknowledge it for what it is to like, and If too many people know are in the know that problematic. So, so I think that’s another thing that blockchain and crypto does as well as like, it really breaks down these barriers of information. siloing. And they create a transparent pay, like, everyone can come to the table, everyone can see the playing field, see all the information, and then we can go from there. Yeah, I

Michael Renfro  27:53  

mean, you really said it. And I know some people would be like, Oh, you’re scared non conspiracy, but anybody that doesn’t understand there’s a reason that you know, those who have the gold make the rules. Well, if you disperse the gold, which is what crypto does, because it puts it on an even playing field, well, then everybody helps make the rules, right, just the way it is. What’s the craziest thing you’ve seen so far? I’ve seen a lot of crazy things. I figured that’d be I’ll give you my I’ll let you take name too. If you feel Hey, yeah,

Andrew Bull  28:23  

I got one. All right. So I had a client and he’s no longer my client. So I’m allowed to share this information. I’m also not sharing any personal information. But yeah, no, you’re good. This guy was, was facilitating transactions of Bitcoin way, way back when early days. So like, was basically connecting to parties, and just taking a fee for like having them transfer Bitcoin, right? So

Michael Renfro  28:43  

he just made he was kind of like a broker, right? He would make a fee for transferring crypto from one person to another.

Andrew Bull  28:50  

Right, right. And it turns out, that’s illegal unless you’re. But the crazy thing was, is that he had made all this money and I go to his house, and he’s giving me a tour of his house. And he opens the door to one of his rooms. And there’s this massive tub just sitting in the middle of the room. And again, like this is a crypto rich guy, he made all this crypto money. There’s a huge alligator just sitting right in the tub. And this is just sitting in his house. And so I’m sitting there going, I launched my practice a year and a half ago, this industry, there’s no other attorneys in it. And I’m standing in one of my clients house looking at an alligator sitting in his bathtub. And I’m like, you know, some kind of a movie? Yeah, some of the people in this industry are so like, they’re all over the map centric, like the best way possible. So that’s, that’s definitely one of the crazier experiences as a practicing lawyer

Michael Renfro  29:40  

going to my clients. I can’t imagine Did you do a double take? Did you kind of step back at first when you like? Yeah, like did you almost think that it wasn’t alive for a second even that maybe this

Andrew Bull  29:50  

was a prop? Definitely for sure. But then, like, my like, instincts kicked in and I was like, oh, whoa, what? Like, we’re not going all the way to this room. Are we But as great as but yeah, yeah, that’s one of them. And then the other one is, there’s an exchange in Russia, this is actually well before the Russia and Ukraine situation that’s going on. So yeah, there’s an exchange in Russia that they had gotten slapped with some violations of these sanctions across different countries. And and we did in an audit of the transactions that they had. And we were got exposed to a lot of different transactions from a lot of bad organizations throughout the world. And so I think that and that’s another it’s a good

Michael Renfro  30:36  

call that an eye opener there.

Andrew Bull  30:39  

That’s right. Which like, and that’s the other thing, too, is that like, I don’t sit here because there are people in the industry that are like no regulation, no oversight, like

Michael Renfro  30:48  

they want to, they want more than the wild wild west. And for it to stay that way. Yeah. Right.

Andrew Bull  30:53  

And it’s not about it really can’t survive that way, in my opinion. So we need some oversight. And that was just one of those exposures where I was like, Whoa, there’s some pretty bad organizations out there that are utilizing crypto for sure.

Michael Renfro  31:06  

So yeah, I say that that’s probably the same kind of eye opener as the first time that I understood what a dot onion site was, and the deep dark web and what that like when you actually find out that that’s where more internet traffic is actually dwelling. You realize that’s the eye opener of where the world actually is. You’re like, oh, man, what are my neighbors doing?

Andrew Bull  31:32  

Yeah, I was I was bringing up if anyone doesn’t think that their information like their social security numbers, not on the internet, you’re fooling

Michael Renfro  31:38  

Oh, please, man. Like it’s really a matter of, you know, I say, you just keep putting out positive energy. So I say like some of these people to get hit, I want to ask and like, what’s some of your closet? things going on? Can you just name one skeleton that maybe had this marked as you had it coming kind of thing? So going back early, and you’ll like this. This one’s really easy. Where are you from? And what was it like growing up there?

Andrew Bull  32:09  

For sure. Yeah. So I’m from Bucks County, which is about North hour north of Philadelphia. And you’re a Pennsylvania man. Yep. That’s right. Yeah. I’ve also lived in South Carolina, but mostly in Pennsylvania. And nice. I was in Greenville,

Michael Renfro  32:27  

Columbia and Columbia in West Columbia, Casey area, if you know that downtown. Yeah, that was there.

Andrew Bull  32:34  

Absolutely. Yeah. We used to go to Columbia all the time, as well as Charleston. But, but yeah, so born and raised in Pennsylvania, and I still live in Philadelphia. I go to New York a bunch now. But yeah, so

Michael Renfro  32:47  

until all I can imagine that you probably take a lot of trips to New York and then some other cities, too, I would imagine. Just some of the bigger ones. Do you ever end up going to Chicago?

Andrew Bull  32:58  

Hmm. Yeah, Chicago.

Michael Renfro  32:59  

La isn’t?

Andrew Bull  33:00  

Just go Boston.

Michael Renfro  33:02  

Yeah. What about what about any of the Texas guys like Houston or Dallas? I imagine there’s a lot of crypto going on down there.

Andrew Bull  33:09  

Yeah, definitely. Houston. We were just in Austin. There’s

Michael Renfro  33:13  

I was literally about to say Austin as well. Because there Austin and San Antonio are so on the rise that people don’t know how big those cities are going to be. They were the two cities during the remember that home builder the builder bubble back in? Oh, 8070. Wait, yeah. Where the builders were basically every builder was hurting for money, but not in those two cities. Those dudes, the builders in San Antonio and Austin, were still just pumping out houses and selling them like crazy. Crazy, right?

Andrew Bull  33:41  

There’s a lot of demand there. Yeah, yeah. One of the largest crypto conferences in the world was actually just there last month. So we were there

Michael Renfro  33:46  

was the name of it. Consensus census I have to look at. So growing up, you talked about this a little bit. So what’d you think? You know, you said you were much like like me, by the way. Big Nerd. Like, I went to Star Wars at five years old man. I’m saying so like, I literally watched that entire franchise. My father and I had the button. May the force be with you? Like three months before the movie came out? We had no idea what the hell the force was. I’m serious, man. I don’t know if you see but other than the one sentence because I do love Phil Hartman and God bless him and may you know rest in peace. Yeah, the rest of the the rest of us that Darth Maul you’ll actually be interested in because that’s the one with his gray. So there was only like 1000 misprinted where he had gray vest. Right, right. Yeah. I mean, always been a nerd. And I know what, you know, inspired me to go in that direction. But what do you think was your biggest influence pointing you in the direction of numbers and, you know, sci fi and all of it? Yeah, for sure. As long as well. Like, you know, put that in there too. Yeah.

Andrew Bull  35:00  

I mean, the seminal book that is always comes to mind for me is Ender’s Game. And and that’s and then after that just like kind of opening the floodgates for just reading and I mean, like, obviously with the crazy Dune movie that’s out now like reading dune reading some foundational stuff and, and I think that that kind of like coupled itself really just that initial exposure exposure, my dad’s a an engineer. And so I think like numbers and science and kind of all that has always been in the circulation where it was, right. Yeah, exactly. And then I mean, law, like I said, was like, it’s there. It’s not numbers, right. It’s much more words, but there’s a numbers component to it from a rationale perspective. So

Michael Renfro  35:41  

the number I say there’s a number of components, everything just between you and me, sir. Yeah. I’m a big numerology guy, I look at every number that is involved in anything and, you know, put it to write analyzation. Let’s just put it right, right.

Andrew Bull  35:57  

Ray Kurzweil came out with is a famous inventor came out with a documentary called The Transcendent Man. I think it was like 2007, I can’t remember the year. But anyways, that the transcendent, Transcendent Man, and it’s where he actually coined the term the singularity, the like, combination between humans and robots and not being able to decipher between the two. Right, and, and that it’s funny, because that led me to a technology subreddit, which is actually where I saw a comment from somebody who was on a chat that said, Hey, you should check out Bitcoin. And that was how I got to crypto. Wow, that was just like this kind of stepping stone process to get there. And then, yeah, I mean, with with law, just because being fascinated with regulation, and just like, wanting to have some type of contribution to the industry, in that context, it all kind of came together.

Michael Renfro  36:52  

That’s cool. That’s cool. So here, these final questions, by the way, these are just, these are quick and easy. Just kind of what I mean by that is just think about your favorite thing, really. So colleague wise, and then, you know, like the folks that you work with, actually, who would you say you most respect in the industry currently? Where it is?

Andrew Bull  37:14  

Yeah. So there’s a guy, his name’s Andy Albertson. And he works for a much larger firm than mine. And he is definitely somebody that I have never worked with directly. But we’ve been on the other sides of transactions with clients. And he’s somebody that it’s really easy to deduce. Especially when I’m looking at another lawyer talking to another lawyer, how much they understand about the industry. And he is top level in that context. Your knowledge. Right,

Michael Renfro  37:41  

right. Yeah. What city is he in? If you don’t mind me asking? Seattle? Seattle? Yeah, why does that not surprise me? Yeah, they are always I will say this. There’s a lot of fresh thinking minds in Seattle. And they’ve always to me kind of been one of those younger cities in the sense that the young like to go there, you know, crazy with all the rain, but it is what it is. And you said you bet you actually want to give them a couple times. Like that’s where you you had a great respect for him even though he was on the other side you saw. Yeah, so

Andrew Bull  38:15  

where he he’s representing client as a client, they’re interacting together in some way shape or

Michael Renfro  38:19  

Oh, okay. So they’re just interact not necessarily against, you’re just both rip. Okay. Now understand. Okay. Yeah. So not not like litigation. They just got it. Yeah. But but he because

Andrew Bull  38:29  

he, the thing that I look for in this context is, you understand the legal side of it, and the legal implications, but you really understand that tech, and that second part, it’s just so easy to glean whether a lawyer understands that I was

Michael Renfro  38:42  

gonna say, man, you know, I have a knack as a salesman for reading people. And my family can’t stand it because I’m like, they really can’t flip to me, right? It’s just so and you probably sniff out a non crypto person like that, you know, and you can also if you’re anything like me, you’re like, Okay, you know enough to talk about it, but you don’t know enough to be in it kind of thing after talking to what’s your favorite podcast?

Andrew Bull  39:13  

It’s called unchained. Yeah. unchained and as you can imagine, it’s about blockchain. Yeah, I

Michael Renfro  39:18  

can’t, I can’t imagine it’s a crypto, it’s a crypto.

Andrew Bull  39:23  

They’re great. The those guys because again, they’re they’re

Michael Renfro  39:26  

truly teaching going on on their show to understand, you know, you get what I mean. Yeah,

Andrew Bull  39:32  

absolutely. My one word like a warning is that they can get pretty substantive, quick from a technical perspective. So like, I always say, Hey, if you listen to this, like don’t don’t walk away thinking like, you need to know everything that they’re talking about. Just try to

Michael Renfro  39:44  

get just follow and you’ll eventually you’ll start to each time you listen, you’ll get more and more of the context. Right? Yep. Yep. That’s cool. Conference, I It’s funny that this is one of the questions I’m assuming it might actually be the one that you just went to their Austin, what is your favorite conference?

Andrew Bull  40:03  

Yeah, for sure. Consensus. So they’ve been doing it. I think I went, I’ve been to all of them, but it was probably like five or six years. And at the first one, there was like 60 people, and they had like four speakers. And this most recent one, I think they had, I don’t know, like 200 300 speakers alone and like 40,000 attendees. 1000. Yes, something insane. But yeah, so that’s definitely always been kind of the highest quality one. I think there has been a lot of conferences that have popped up that are more either focused on one area of the industry, or they might not necessarily have the legitimacy of consensus.

Michael Renfro  40:45  

Yeah, I was gonna ask you. There was one that just happened and I may end up getting it backwards. I do. I’m a dyslexic dingdong. But I think it’s NFT NYC. Yep. Yep. So I hope I’m glad I got it. Right. Is that one that you think you might be attending in the future? That one seems to be becoming pretty big, or did you actually go to that one? Yeah, I spoke.

Andrew Bull  41:07  

I spoke at that one this year. I spoke at that one last year as well. I think that they’ve been around for two or three years anyways. Yeah. So I spoke about regulation that both of them over the last few years. And yeah, I’ll definitely be there next year. I like the guys who run it there. They, they do a really good job for sure.

Michael Renfro  41:23  

I have heard through the grapevine non related to law at all at all, just you know, on my own, that they’re becoming one of the bigger ones for NFT at least, you know, specific to NFT they’re kind of becoming one of the ones that people feel like they need to go to. Yeah, yeah, I’m not gonna repeat this other question. Because you, you really only have, we really already went over who your mentor was, and the best advice you’ve gotten. So last, but not least, I think this one will be curious, favorite tools and or software that you use in your specific field. So how about this, let’s name one law tool that you use, right? And then one crypto tool that you

Andrew Bull  42:01  

for sure. Yeah, so the law tool is called Clio CLIO. Oh, it’s great. I know that tool. It’s a great piece of software for sure. And then the crypto one I’m going to go with. I could go a couple different directions, but I’m gonna stick with just like the Ethereum blockchain, because the Ethereum blockchain is allowing people to build applications on a blockchain that are going to impact every single industry that we have

Michael Renfro  42:31  

current fiber, those NFT’s I told you about that were gifted to me. Yeah. You can imagine. I bet you even know I bet you even know the platform that they were invented under. Yes.

Andrew Bull  42:45  

Yeah, ERC 721 Yeah, it’s the most popular for sure.

Michael Renfro  42:48  

Yeah, it you know, it didn’t. But you, you know, sometimes there’s a I used to fight the popular just between you and me growing up, you know, and I was always, like, if it’s popular, it can’t be good. I like that was my approach to it always. Because I was so into the belief of sheeple. And I say that, with all due respect, that was my younger, you know, persona. I now understand, like, I always look at something when it’s popular, and then I decide, okay, is it popular? Because of it’s actually really great, and has real, you know, potential? Or is it popular? Because it’s a fad, and it’s going to be gone? You can you can start to pick them? Like what’s going to be gone in two weeks? And what’s actually going to be there and 20 decades from now, you know, so yeah, I will say this I would open see and what in theory, um, you know, in theory and first and then open see obvious that it’s really quite it’s, you wonder where it is because, I mean, I used to sell not too long ago, I sold financials, and when I sold it, you only had people that were educated in trading three things and that was the exchange commodities, and essentially the, you know, the securities field, right? Other than that, you know, stocks, bonds, all that conflict, right. Now, you really truly have a fourth that is 100% there that I think probably if you look at the number of traders there the number of people trading over here in the in the cryptocurrency is probably almost equal to all the others now, it’s growing so massively and so quickly. It’s just insane.

Andrew Bull  44:19  

It has Yeah, we represent a lot of funds, a lot of investment advisors in the space that it’s become

Michael Renfro  44:24  

a huge portal for investment. I think any guy who holds their series six or seven, and doesn’t look to learn this is gonna be a dinosaur, not not to not to be rude to them, but they’re going to be a dinosaur because somebody’s going to come and be like, hey, I want a piece of every single pie. I want to be diverse. I want crypto I want securities commodities. I want it all

Andrew Bull  44:46  

there. There are no questions on this on the series seven exam about crypto. Get out of here. Really.

Michael Renfro  44:52  

I did not know that. That’s well, hey, at least the exchanges is you know, and everybody’s people are looking at it and understand Knowing that it’s something that you know, has to be has to be known. Right? Well, man, I really appreciate it. Bullblockchain.com Right? Yeah. Bullblockchainlaw.com Yep. Bull Blockchain Law excuse me, I forgot the law on there Bull Blockchain Law, it’ll be we’ll have it on on the on the video, you know, they’ll they’ll add that graphic. So you know, okay, well I really enjoyed it man a lot of great knowledge. And quite frankly, if you’re okay with it, I might reach back out maybe in a year or so and see where you folks are at and see what kind of changes because this one, this one is one that I think is really keen to follow in many, many aspects not just because of the growth of your law firm, but the growth of crypto even even Moreover, because, you know, I think it’s gonna be obviously a two pronged effect for you as crypto grows, the law firms gonna grow. And so, you know, you might see some exponential growth, that’ll be awesome. But what I’m really curious to see is, you know, from this point a year from now, how many changes and what has drastically become implemented that is, you know, how do you say, I guess just change the ball game and the way that you play it, because I guarantee there’ll be at least one, two, or possibly even three things in the next year, that change this ballgame. So it’ll be

Andrew Bull  46:19  

without a doubt. Yeah. And that sounds great. Always happy to share insight and catch up. That’s awesome.

Michael Renfro  46:25  

I hope you had a great time. Absolutely. Thanks, Michael. I’m gonna go ahead and do exit here. And with that, I will just say this, please come back, we will be here. We’re recording so many episodes, we’re actually a little bit ahead of it. But the episodes will be weekly. They might even do on bi weekly. I don’t know how they’re gonna do that. But we’re gonna be weekly. So the next episode will be soon. Thank you so much for joining us. Please remember, if you do have some questions about law, and are seeing the law, marketing, or even for the solo guy, because we help anybody from the solo law firm all the way up to, you know, 45, or even 100, law lawyers, attorneys, excuse me. Either way, come to us for help, we will be glad to give you some help. We don’t even charge for that help, like so many agencies do. And that right there should give you a clue as to what is really going on. In fact, just a little clue for anybody out there looking for marketing. If you talk to a marketing agency, and they don’t offer the doing an audit of doing a a analysis of your website and your competitions ahead of time for no funds for no commitment, then you should really be looking somewhere else. Because that’s the first thing that they should do before they even give you a monthly recommended budget because how would they know what that budget should be without taking a earnest look at your area, your competition and your geographical area? You need to look at those. That is all I have to say today. Thank you so much. Thank you again for joining us and we will be back next week. Have a great day.

Outro  48:01  

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