Will Stafford is the Managing Attorney at Stafford Law Firm, a relationship-based legal planning firm for businesses and families focused on protecting their legacies. Will had over a decade of experience providing legal counsel with multiple agencies before starting his firm. He specializes in estate planning, mergers and acquisitions, venture capital, capital markets, and corporate governance.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

• Will Stafford talks about his decision to start his own firm and practice estate planning
• How to align your estate planning with your family’s needs
• Social media and video marketing are a funnel for acquiring new clients
• Will details how estate planning establishes your legacy
• What can you do to prepare your business for the next generation?
• The importance of educating yourself on what to look for in an estate attorney

In this episode…

Keeping your clients up-to-date on estate planning can feel like an arduous task, but it doesn’t need to be. What steps can you take to ensure the longevity and legacy of your clients? How can you interact with potential clients? One way to provide value for your clients and their family is by educating them on amendments pertaining to estate planning. To do this, Will Stafford reaches out to his clients every two years with educational tools. He also uses social media to reach clients and engage in educational conversations on deciding what’s best for his clients’ families, leaving them feeling empowered and informed about their choices. In this episode of 15 Minutes, Bela Musits sits down with Will Stafford, Managing Attorney at Stafford Law Firm, to discuss why legacy planning is crucial for your family and business. Will talks about making empowered and educated decisions, why video marketing is an effective tool, and how estate planning can prevent conflict.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Gladiator Law Marketing
• Bela Musits on LinkedIn
• Will Stafford on LinkedIn
• Stafford Law Firm

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, where we deliver tailor-made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential. To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. At Gladiator Law Marketing, we use artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition. To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com or schedule a free marketing consultation. You can also send an email to adam@gladiatorlawmarketing.com.

Episode Transcript

Intro  0:01   You’re listening to 15 Minutes, where we feature community leaders sharing what the rest of us should know, but likely don’t. Bela Musits  0:12   Hi, listeners, I’m Bela Musits, the host of the share your voice podcast, where we talked with top notch law firms and attorneys about what it takes to grow a successful law practice. This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, delivering tailor made services to help your law firm accomplish its objectives and maximize your growth potential to have a successful marketing campaign and to make sure you’re getting the best return on your investment. Your firm needs to have better website and better content. Gladiator Law Marketing uses artificial intelligence, machine learning and decades of experience to outperform the competition. To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com where you can schedule a free marketing consultation. Today’s guest on the podcast is attorney Will Stafford. He founded Stafford Law in Houston, Texas, where he has dedicated his life to keeping families and business owners out of court and conflict. His firm provides comprehensive relationship focused legal services to help his clients protect their legacies. Welcome to the podcast. Will, Will Stafford  1:23   thank you so much for having me. Glad to be here. Yeah, Bela Musits  1:27   this is great. So in addition to founding the law firm, what’s your primary role at Stafford law? Will Stafford  1:35   Yeah, thanks for asking. So I’m, I’m the founder of the firm. I’m the owner of the firm, and I am the managing attorney of the firm. So I lead a small team of dedicated team members and serving our clients. And whatever their needs are. Yeah, yeah. Bela Musits  1:52   So how when did you found the firm? How old is the firm? Yeah, so we Will Stafford  1:57   founded the firm in January of 2021. So we’re coming up on our second birthday next month. And it was a creation of the COVID pandemic. So I was working at the time, for a large firm here in Houston. That’s a very similar practice to what I have now with my own firm representing Families and business owners and their estate and legacy protection matters. And I had an idea for a better way to provide these types of services. And as I’m sure you know, old firms are like big ships, and they’re, they’re slow to turn. And so it wasn’t really a place for my vision in that in that big, firm environment. And so I took the opportunity that the pandemic provided and left to do my own thing. Bela Musits  2:52   Yeah. So I’m always interested in people who start their own firms. Was this like, you know, in a shower one morning, you said, I’m going to do this? Or was it something that sort of was brewing for a longer period of time? Will Stafford  3:05   Yeah. So it’s funny, it’s a great question, because it’s actually a little bit of both. So it’s something that I had thought about over the years that you know, different inflection points in my career where maybe I changed jobs or changed focus a little bit. And I thought, over the years that maybe this is something that I would want to do one day, and then another opportunity came along, that I was excited about, and so I’m so jumped on it. But then kind of the epiphany that happened for me, that actually pushed me over the ledge to actually do it was was really personal. It wasn’t a professional situation. My grandfather passing away, and, you know, my grandfather, also an attorney, lived in 99. Great, long, well love life. Wow. And he had practiced law his entire life, you know, 70 years. And when he passed away, I don’t think any of us were were super worried that, that there was gonna be a problem left behind, we kind of assumed things would be buttoned up and taken care of. And unfortunately, then my, my mom and uncle spent the next about two and a half years sorting through a mess in in probate court, kind of unwinding a bunch of, of planning that had been done and not maintained over time. And so that was really the personal experience that I had. That pushed me to kind of conceptualize these different ways to practice estate planning. And, and that was the spark that kind of became the idea for Stanford Law Firm. Yeah, Bela Musits  4:40   you know, it really is amazing. Both my parents have passed, both my in laws have passed. And so we went through various different elements of that. It would, we would eat with each of them. And it’s amazing how the lack of education that the general public has about sort of the challenge ensures that you can have when when you’re left, you know, with within a state to do something with. And how do you how do you sort of help your clients sort of understand that and get that word out? Will Stafford  5:14   Yeah, well, so you’ve absolutely hit the nail on the head that the biggest problem with estate planning is that people don’t understand what it is, and what it can be if it’s done well. And so, you know, traditional estate planning law firms, they treat it very much like a transaction, like you’re just buying milk from the grocery store, the you know, a client calls up and they say, I need a will or I need a power of attorney or whatever. In the law firm says, Great, we sell wills, they cost X dollars come in on Tuesday and pick it up. But they skip the education part of it, which is the most important part, which is helping the client understand what we mean by the phrase estate planning. And what’s possible within the realm of estate planning, or business succession planning, or whatever we’re talking about. And getting them to the point where they feel educated and empowered to make some decisions for their themselves. You know, what is it that you want? What are your goals? Tell me what you want. And let’s work together to design an estate plan that accomplishes those goals. Because if I don’t know what your goals are, I can’t be a good counselor for you. So what I was saying is that it’s really important to spend the time letting the client understand and educate educating them about what’s possible within the scope of estate planning, you know, in helping them walk through different scenarios. What do you want to have happen in these scenarios? What are your primary goals for your planning, your estate, business succession planning, whatever we’re working on, and then taking those goals and turning them into options that they can choose from, and say, here are the different ways we can accomplish these goals, what works best for you what’s best for your family, what’s best for your budget, and then letting them choose feeling empowered and educated between those choices. So it’s really a much more collaborative experience. And that’s really important to me, because I think that allows families to avoid some of the problems that my family and countless other families go through on the back end. Because like, this is something I tell every client who walks in our door, estate planning isn’t something we do for ourselves, it’s very unlikely we’re ever going to use the planning that we do in this room. This is a gift you give to your family. And so when we think about leaving behind, you got to think about the experience that they’re going to have, because that’s what you’re doing. That’s what you’re planning for. Bela Musits  7:38   Well, that’s a that’s a great way of thinking about it. You know, I never thought about that. But you’re absolutely right. If if I do that, well, my wife and I do that, well, that’s the gift we give our our children, because then it’s smooth, and there’s not a lot of headaches, and it’s not a big pile of work for them. Whereas if you don’t do that, well, it can be, you know, quite an arduous thing. That is not enjoyable, quite frankly. And you know, it’s a constant reminder of the loved one that passed. Will Stafford  8:09   Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, that’s, that’s exactly right. And so that’s why, you know, especially at this time of year, we talk a lot about clients about this being a gift, and it’s, you know, it’s something better that you can give your family than, you know, a new chair, or a new one, or something like that this is something that can be really truly valuable in the long term for your family. Yeah. And, you know, we also talk a lot about the education piece not being the end of our relationship. So, you know, and this is really exemplified by my grandfather’s situation is that, you know, his planning was done in these discrete silos over the course of about four years, but then never revisited. And so because there was no one keeping track of it over time, things grew stale life circumstances changed, assets were bought and sold. And so the planning that was done, however, many years ago didn’t reflect, reflect the reality today. And so one of the things that we do that’s really important, in my opinion for our clients, is we have a commitment that every so often every couple of years, we reach out to every single one of our clients. And we invite them to come in for a free 30 minute meeting. So it doesn’t have to be long or arduous, but it’s just a chance to sit down, see how they’re doing, learn about changes in their life, tell them about changes in the law, and then decide if we need to make any updates to their plan with them over time and stays relevant to their life. Yeah, well, you Bela Musits  9:51   know, it must It must really be nice to sort of have started your own law firm. Because Because now you can do these types of things. And and I have a A couple of friends that are attorneys and I know both of them work at large law firms. And it’s, you know, every seven and a half minutes, it’s a billable chunk of time. And, and they’re constantly focused on that, because that’s just how the rules work. And sometimes in those larger, larger firms, where what you’re doing is you can have a much more personal touch with with your clients and build this relationship that lasts for a longer period of time. That’s very nice. Yeah, Will Stafford  10:27   I mean, it’s exactly right, you know, owning my own firm, I have so much flexibility to craft an engagement, custom made for each client. And it doesn’t have to fit in that every six minutes, tick, tick, tick tick mold of time, in fact, almost nothing we do is billed hourly, I mean, less than 10% of our firm’s revenue is hourly, Billings, it’s all flat fees and other types of, of fee arrangements. So it’s been a blessing to be able to do that, you know, on the average estate planning client, we spend two to three hours with them, before they actually engage us to be their attorney. Yeah, very, you know, it’s, it’s a lot of investment on our end up front, but it really pays off on the back end, you know, obviously, financially, but also in a in a better work. Sure, sure. Bela Musits  11:19   So one of the other challenges in starting your own firm, is you have to worry about a whole bunch of stuff that if you’re, you know, a partner in a larger firm, you don’t have to worry about, for example, like marketing, and you know, a website and and what the content is going to be, how was your approach been for that? Will Stafford  11:39   Yeah, so I came into that, I think, pretty eyes wide open. And so had a pretty robust plan from day one about how we were going to get our name out into the community, I was blessed to be coming from a, you know, decade plus long career already. So we had a little bit of money saved, and I was, you know, not wealthy by any means, but came in to starting my own firm, probably better capitalized than most. And so from the get go, we launched from day one with a professional website with an SEO plan and a social media plan. And, you know, ideas about how to get our name out into the community doing presentations, networking, and, you know, working jointly with other professionals in the community to make sure that our our message was getting out there. So we kind of hit the ground running from that perspective, and have tried not to slow down. Bela Musits  12:41   Yeah. Now, I noticed, I did go to your website, and I noticed that, you know, in addition to the normal information you have on a website, you also have some blogs and some videos, I think, and and what sort of drove you to sort of, you know, making a video is not all that easy. I mean, it’s, it looks easy, if it’s really well done, but it’s really takes a big investment in time, and sometimes resources. So what was your sort of driving force and putting in now those sort of additional things that you typically don’t see in a website? Will Stafford  13:14   Sure, well, it’s a couple of things. Number one, it’s a way to distinguish ourselves from the marketplace. So when when people go to our website, or they go to our YouTube channel, or wherever they find the video, and they see that we’ve put a bunch of time to making all these educational resources for them. It, it increases the trust that they have before they even pick up the phone to call us because we’ve been having a conversation with them over the course of 10 or 20 videos just in you know, 62nd sound bites. It also has the added benefit of if people take the time to look through our website and read and watch videos before they come in to meet with me. They’re more likely to engage the firm because they already feel like they have a relationship with the firm. And so it warms up the leads that come in the door. And it makes them more receptive to, to receiving our services. Bela Musits  14:08   Yeah, have those just curious, have those videos been sort of the most fruitful of your sort of outreach that you do to finding prospective clients? Um, Will Stafford  14:22   I wouldn’t say they’re the most fruitful, but they’re certainly an important piece of the pie. And so one of the things we do really well is we use the videos in a lot of different ways. So they’re on the website, they’re on YouTube. They’re on social media, some of them are chopped up and in made into smaller sound bites for social media, like like just little 10/22 sound bites. And then a lot of them we use to point them to longer form media. So maybe we’ll shoot a short one minute video that’s intended to drive people to sign up for a 45 minute webinar with me. Got it. And so they’re, they’re one piece of a have a bigger puzzle of how we kind of funnel people towards the firm. To the point where, where they’re, they’re ready to engage with us. Yeah, Bela Musits  15:12   you know, it really is interesting how things have changed, you know, I’m old enough that I can remember basically, the only way you would advertise. And not that long ago was on in the newspaper, and in the yellow pages of the phonebook. That was it. And now there’s all these other outlets, and they’re all important. And they all play a role, because different people use use different ones. So you have to address them all. And so I think it’s really, it’s really interesting, the way that you’ve approached that. And, and the interesting thing also about your videos, is they’re building trust, they’re building that relationship. They’re establishing you as an expert in this field. And it does it in a much more rich way, I think, then then reading something on a website or reading an ad in the newspaper. Will Stafford  16:03   Yeah, you know, there’s something really intimate almost about knowing someone’s voice, you know, and it’s funny, because when I watch these videos, I don’t sound the way I think I sound right. None of us do. But I do think the sure I do the real thing, where if someone walks into the room and meets me in person for the first time, and when I start talking, they recognize the voice because they’ve been to one of our seminars or watched a webinar, or videos. There’s a level of connection there that doesn’t exist without that. And it’s funny, you bring up like Yellow Pages in newspapers, you know, one of the things that we tried early on, was advertising in, you know, a local community magazine, like, you know, like the free like, 50 page magazine that everyone is you’re in, like the broader neighborhood gets. And we did it for a full year and got exactly zero calls from it. So, you know, print media is just, I don’t know, it’s dead. Bela Musits  17:03   Yeah. Yeah, it’s not, it’s not what it used to be. Let’s just say that. Yeah, and these other mediums are much richer than than a static ad, right, or even a static webpage. There’s, there’s, there’s something about that richer, sort of multi multifaceted, multi dimensional way that you can connect with, connect with clients and potential clients. So let’s dive in a little bit into the two big areas that that you do. So we talked about sort of estate planning? What are some of the specific things that that people come to you for or you think are really important for people to Will Stafford  17:42   think about? Yeah, so most people who come to us for estate planning are coming to us, without a really good idea of what it is that they want. So usually, they’ve either someone had in their life has told them like, oh, you need a will. And so they search, you know, will lawyer Houston. And I have, you know, a fortuitous person named for those kinds of searches. And, and so the conversation really starts from there. And it’s more. Here’s what estate planning is and what it can be. Now, let’s really decide what it is you want. And so what we’ll talk a lot about is how old are your kids? And how protected are they going to be if something happens to you, not just financially, but also from a care perspective, Who’s going to care for them long term, Who’s going to care for them in the short term, because we need our estate plans when our kids are five or 10 years old, it’s not going to be it was expected when we left the house that morning, it’s typically going to be some kind of accident. And so there are real short term concerns that can be planned for some What if people think about it, but most people don’t think about it. And so we’re thinking about those kinds of things. We’re thinking about the experience your family has after you pass away, so not necessarily who’s going to inherit your stuff? That’s the easy question. Most of the time, almost everyone chooses the same list of people. What we’re really talking about is how are they going to get that stuff? How long is it going to take? How oppressive is the process going to be? And so we talk about the difference between a will and a trust. And, you know, one of the biggest myths that I bust every day is people think that a will, if they have a will, they don’t have to go through the probate court, when the exact opposite is true or will is a one way ticket to probate court. There’s no way to use a will without going to court. So if avoiding probate is your ultimate goal, we’ve got to have a better plan in place. And so we talk a lot about that. And so a lot more about experience then results, because the results are always the easy part. It’s your chance of getting there that it’s more difficult and what people don’t often think about Yeah, you know, Bela Musits  19:59   The other thing I just wanted to mention is that about a year ago, my mom passed away, and she had some health care directives. And you know, her and I had a great relationship. So we talked about a lot of that stuff, what her wishes were excetera. That’s not always the case that either people have the time to do that, or the opportunity to have those engaging conversations. And what was what it didn’t, it didn’t hit me until after she passed. But I knew exactly what she wanted, which, which made it quite frankly, very easy for me to to go through and follow through on her wishes, because I knew what she wanted, I knew what she wanted for service, I knew, you know, what she wanted to do with all of those types of things. And having had an other experience with with my in laws, which was less clear as to what they wanted. And it was a nightmare for the all the siblings because they’re all getting together. And they’re trying to figure out what someone wants, and you know what they’re going to do. And it just brings a lot of anguish. And it goes back to what you said earlier about being a gift, right? This is a gift to your to your dependents or your your children, that it helps them sort of figure out what your wishes are, and what to do. Will Stafford  21:19   Yeah, well, you know, first, let me say I’m so sorry to hear about your mom, I know, that’s probably still fresh for you. But thank you, what I what I tell clients is that there’s two parts to that kind of end of life near. It’s deciding who’s going to be making the decisions, and telling those people what you want the decision to be. So you have to empower someone to do it, and then educate them on what you want. So it’s all about education and empowerment, at every step of the process. And my experience on the other end of things. So after someone’s passed away, or they become ill, is that even if the person you’ve empowered to make those decisions, doesn’t agree with what you want. As long as you have clearly expressed what you want, they’ll honor your wishes, because that’s their primary goal. Yes. But if we can get to the point where people clearly know what you want, and who’s in charge of delivering it, people will respect that. And so the simple act of having an estate plan often prevents conflict. Hmm. Even if the plan isn’t what what the kids or other family members wanted or expected. Because at the end of the day, they know this is what mom and dad wanted. And even though it’s not what I want for them, I’m going to respect their wishes, because most people are inclined to be respectful. Yeah, that’s excellent question. And so yeah, and so it’s really important. I mean, you really hit the nail on the head, it’s not just putting the legal documents in place in signing the name and picking a name, you have to go a step beyond that, and tell these people that you chose them. Right? First, tell them that you chose them, and then tell them what you want them to do. Because there’s only so much that we can put into, you know, the state’s Advanced Health Care Directive form, right? Some of it, some of it has to come down to that person’s discretion. And if they know what you want, then that makes it a lot easier. Some of the ways that we can tell those people what they want, it’s not always just a verbal conversation. So we give our clients the opportunity to write a letter. Here’s what I want to have happen in these situations, they can record an interview, so we call it our family legacy interview board, and it will work record an interview of them telling their their family members, their, their kids, their siblings, their parents, you know, these are the things that are important to me. It’s especially important when we have young kids involved because the video was really important number one for the kids. Because, you know, if they’re really young, this might be the only thing they ever remember of their parents. Number two, it’s really important for the people who become those kids guardians, because this is your opportunity to tell them all the different things that are important to you as a parent, family values, educational values, religious values, financial values, it doesn’t have to be 10 hours long, it can be just 20 or 30 minutes, but it will lift this huge weight off of those guardians shoulders, because they feel like they know at least a little bit. Have a little bit of direction from you on what you want for your kids. And then that lets them feel like it’s not all on them. They’re not, you know, floundering around in the dark. You’re out what you want. They can say like, Well, I’m not sure they didn’t say exactly in this point. But in the video they left us on this similar situation. They said this so this is probably what they would want so they can take some direction from you even when it’s not directly on point that are really important. As part of, you know, estate planning or do what we call a legacy planning process. Because you know, what you leave behind is a lot more than your bank accounts in your furniture. It’s it’s how people remember you how people remember the experience of your life, the experience of your passing. And the family members that that you leave behind who carry on the values that you instilled in them. And so the more ways we can pass those things on the better, Bela Musits  25:26   I think, yeah, very well said, Will, very well said. Now, I think your firm also does some business law work as well. Can you describe some of that forest place? Will Stafford  25:37   Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, the early part of my career, the first eight or 10 years or so I was a corporate lawyer, you know, I did business and finance work, m&a, transactions, capital, market transactions, Bond deals, that sort of thing. And so I came into the practice, I have now with a really robust business law background, and still do a lot of that just kind of straightforward business transactional work, but it’s something else that we do a lot of now is working with small businesses, family owned businesses, really thinking through? How can they prepare their business for succession, whether that is passing it to the next generation, whether that’s getting it ready for an exit for a sale? How do we make that business? The most attractive to whoever is going to take it over? And make that process work smoothly? Because, you know, most family owned businesses, especially where they’re still owned by the original founder of the company, they’ve never thought about any of this, beyond maybe the unspoken idea that like, oh, well, when I want to retire, my kids will take over? Well, what I learned over the years is, number one, generally, they’ve never even asked their kids if they want to take it over. Right? Right. Very often, the kids have absolutely zero interest in taking it over. And if the kids aren’t going to take it over, there’s no plan in place for who is. And so we have to think about, do you have any partners? Are they younger than you? Would they want to take it over? Do you have any key employees that we might want to strike like, kind of restructure a buyout of the company from the employees? Or are you getting to the point where you’re old and ready to retire? And your your company might be attractive to a financial or strategic buyer who can come in and buy the company from you? And how do we get it ready for that process. And that process? In a perfect world? You know, we need more than just a few months, we want, you know, a few years if we can if we can get it to really navigate that process properly. And really enhance the value of the company. Because, you know, when we talk about valuation of companies, especially small, closely held businesses, we have the quantitative factors that value the company. So what’s your revenue? What’s your EBIT? Da, you know, what’s your net income, these numbers? And those are what they are, you know, those are the results of the company’s business operations. And they are they are, obviously, they can be improved by improving sales, processes, marketing, that sort of thing. But on the other hand, we have these qualitative factors. So what’s the company’s risk management program look like? Does it have a succession plan and the leadership team? Does it have a diversified customer base? You know, how do we make? Does it have written manuals and systems and processes that can be passed on? Can anyone step into any job in the company and do it based on on a manual or a system and process? Once we put these things in place? The qualitative factors of the business improve. And so the multiple of the business improvements, and so right talk about this evaluation is generally we’re talking about a multiple of one of those quantitative numbers. And so while we may be able, you know, the best we can do on the quantitative side might be to increase the business’s revenue, you know, 20%, year over year, 30%, year over year, good solid growth, but nothing exponential. On the qualitative side, we might be able to take a mediocre business from like a three multiple to a five or six multiple doubled the value of the business within a year without changing any of their actual numbers. Yeah, by making the business less risky to the market. So so we think about that sort of thing a lot. Yeah, excellent. Bela Musits  29:48   And I think one of the one of the key things you said there, at least for me, I was in the private equity world for a period of time in the venture capital space. And these things take time. So to try acquisition a company to sell a company to do any of these things. The first piece is assessing what you want to do. But then like you said, there’s oftentimes a year or two of doing things, to take those multiples and improve them. And it takes time. It’s it’s not it’s a process, as you said, so. Excellent, excellent point. So I want to start wrapping this up. So I have two more questions for you. So where can our listeners learn more about you and your firm? Where’s the best place for them to go? Will Stafford  30:29   Yeah, so absolutely, the best place to start is our website. It’s www.staffordlawtx.com staffordlawtx.com. From there, you can find information about our firm about myself, you can find our our free reports or videos, you can get links to our social media. So everything you want to you could possibly want to learn about us you can you can learn starting from there. So that’s the best place to start. And we’d love to hear from, from your listeners. Yeah, great, we Bela Musits  31:01   will make sure that’s in the show notes for the podcast. And my last question. So is there something that I have not asked you, that you would like to share with the audience? Will Stafford  31:12   Um, yeah, that’s a great question. Thanks for asking. So I think that what I’d really like to leave the audience with is, it doesn’t matter whether you work with our firm or another firm, but make sure you’re working with a firm that really values you, as a person and as a educated consumer of legal services. And who doesn’t try to sell you something without making sure that you understand it? First. Because that is really the root of all problems in our industry, is that firms sell services to their clients, and the client has no idea what they’re buying. And so make sure that you’re asking questions of your attorney before you hire them. To root that out? How much time do you spend on education before we make any decisions about our planning? What’s your process in place for making sure that we stay in touch over time after our planning is finished? You know, what are you going to do to make sure that our family members understand our wishes after we’re not able to express them anymore? Those types of questions are really important to ask up front, way more important than asking how much it’s gonna cost. Because I mean, just spoiler alert, it’s all going to be about the same cost as and if you find someone who’s a lot cheaper, you absolutely get what you pay for generally. So in the we’re in, in the world of legal services, people generally end up price wise around the same place. And so it’s all these other factors of the engagement that in my mind become more important in deciding who to hire. So that’s what I’d like to leave your listeners with. Bela Musits  32:54   That’s an excellent, excellent way to wrap things up. Will, thank you very much for being a guest on the podcast. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for joining us. Will Stafford  33:04   Yeah, absolutely. I love it. Thank you so much. Outro  33:08   Thanks for listening to 15 Minutes, be sure to subscribe and we’ll see you next time.