DeAnn Chase is the Founder and Principal of Chase Law Group, where, for the past 15 years, she has taken a holistic approach to provide legal structures, personal liability protection, and tax benefits for business owners as well as manageable and efficient structure for day-to-day operations. Prior to founding Chase Law, DeAnn worked for the Law Offices of Kirk J. Retz, was an Associate for Ford, Walker, Haggerty and Behar, and was an Associate for Harrington, Foxx, Dubrow and Canter.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

• DeAnn Chase talks about why she created a firm for entrepreneurs and small business owners
• Why do lawyers need to be innovative and creative?
• How an hourly rate can be detrimental to your client relationship
• DeAnn describes how to take client interaction from transactional to individualized
• Why you should control expectations as a business owner
• DeAnn discusses prioritizing family over work schedules
• DeAnn shares how her upbringing forged her future and her favorite hobbies
• The importance of delegating online content to reach your audience
• Narrowing down who your client is by narrowing down yourself

In this episode…

Are you marketing to the right clients for your firm? What actionable steps can you take to break away from the traditional firm structure and discover what works best for you? DeAnn Chase knows that it’s better to do what works for you and your process. By doing so, you can gain more traction with clients and show that you care about your people and community. You still need to set clear expectations, but stepping out of the traditional law firm model can give you more control of your time. DeAnn learned how to market her time and law firm to bring the most value to her clients. To hear more, listen to this episode! In this episode of 15 Minutes, Michael Renfro is joined by DeAnn Chase, Founder and Principal of Chase Law Group, to discuss how to understand yourself and your audience for a cohesive relationship. DeAnn talks about removing an hourly rate to establish a better client relationship, controlling expectations as a business owner, and why you should delegate your tasks.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Michael Renfro on LinkedIn
• Gladiator Law Marketing
• DeAnn Chase on LinkedIn
• Chase Law Group
• Stephen Fairley, Founder of the Rainmaker Institute

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, where we deliver tailor-made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential. To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. At Gladiator Law Marketing, we use artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition. To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com or schedule a free marketing consultation. You can also send an email to Adam@gladiatorlawmarketing.com.

Episode Transcript

Intro  0:01   You’re listening to 15 Minutes, where we feature community leaders sharing what the rest of us should know but likely don’t. Michael Renfro  0:13   Hello everyone, Michael Renfro here I’m the host of 15 Minutes share your voice where we talk with top notch law firms and lawyers about what it takes to grow a successful law practice. This episode. This episode as usual is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, where we deliver better intellect I’m kidding where we deliver better speech. Again, I’m kidding. When we deliver tailor made tailor made services to help you accomplish your objectives, and maximize your growth potential. Just a quick tidbit in order to have a successful marketing campaign and make sure that you’re getting the best ROI, you really need to make sure your firm is actually the best website and has the best content and Gladiator we use artificial intelligence combined with machine learning and then on top of that, over a century have actually added up over 125 years of combined experience, specific to law firm marketing to outperform that competition. To learn more simply go to GladiatorLawMarketing.com That’s GladiatorLawMarketing.com. You can schedule a free marketing free consultation there where we actually do a full audit for you at no cost. That’s about a $2,500 value. And with that today’s guest is yet another interesting attorney with yet another interesting background as they all seem to have at least the ones that I’ve interviewed so far. Today, we have DeAnn Chase from Chase Law Group and DeAnn, what practice area and where are you? Where are you joining us from? DeAnn Chase  1:40   So my law firm services outside general counsel for small to medium sized companies. So we actually cover a broad range of practice areas, everything from entity formations, trademarks, contracts, employment, franchising, so we we do a lot under one roof, and I’m located in Manhattan Beach, California. So that’s SoCal. Michael Renfro  2:04   So that kind of sounds like almost like an outsourced in house counsel, like your your in house counsel for a lot of these companies, but you don’t actually work in their in their office, but you kind of do the same things that in house counsel would do. Is that, am I hearing that correctly? DeAnn Chase  2:20   Yeah, for the most part, I mean, a lot of our clients are actually entrepreneurs. So they don’t, they don’t kind of understand the concept of outside General Counsel, you know, when I’m speaking to, to a an audience of lawyers, they they kind of get it. But when I’m marketing, I don’t I don’t usually market myself as general counsel, as much as I just say, I take a holistic approach to the law, helping entrepreneurs with their with their business needs, Michael Renfro  2:47   which is actually awesome, because I’ve already gathered that you, yourself, have the entrepreneurial spirit in you. So why don’t we go ahead and get right into how, how did that get started? How did you you know, and when I say that, I’m referring more to the practice and currently what you have, how did you get started doing what you’re doing today? DeAnn Chase  3:03   Sure. Yeah. So um, you know, I’ve, I’ve practiced in in all kinds of different types of environments. So, you know, for example, my last semester of law school, I worked for the DHS office. And then but coming out of law school, I stepped into an insurance defense job working in a big downtown law firm. And I practiced exclusively insurance, defense litigation for the first 10 years of my career. I got put in, and then I stepped off partnership track, really what we were focusing on our mind has been focusing on our family and I started my practice this law practice in 2007. So I’m celebrating 15 Michael Renfro  3:44   years this year. Galatians. Thank you. DeAnn Chase  3:47   Very proud of that. Michael Renfro  3:49   Yes. Three years, you got to be proud of it these days. DeAnn Chase  3:53   No, right. Yeah. So 15 years, but really, when I started the practice, the the idea then and now is really to help business owners to avoid a lot of the situations that I was that I saw in the courtrooms. Right. So Michael Renfro  4:11   I experienced and kind of had an idea of both sides really, by that point. DeAnn Chase  4:15   Yeah, like, I mean, I remember being in front of a jury in Santa Monica with a client who had sent, you know, send an email and ended up that email ended up like blown up as an exhibit, highlight, you know, a letter with, you know, sentences that he wrote, I did in front of the jury. So it was really sort of what not to do. Things. Yeah, what really not the best tactic, but the thing is, is that these, you know, these entrepreneurs and business owners when they’re trying to do, they’re trying to do things on their own. They’re trying to avoid the cost of paying a lawyer. So they’re, you know, they don’t I always say they don’t know what they don’t know, but, but they really have to be kind of in the right place to be Ready to hear that and accept it? Michael Renfro  5:02   Yeah, I think one of the downsides, as I’m an entrepreneur and I’ve, I’ve done, I’ve done a few businesses at this point. And, you know, the one thing is, is you don’t know you need an attorney in that situation until you unfortunately need an attorney. And then you’re like, oh, man, I could have avoided all this, had I taken a few precautions, you know, there’s just so many things that you can do that, really, it seems like it costs you a lot of money. But ultimately, it’s going to cost you five, even 10, maybe even 20 times more, the amount later if you didn’t have the attorney, or didn’t have the attorney in the beginning. DeAnn Chase  5:40   You know, it’s absolutely true. It’s absolutely true. And yet, they say prevention doesn’t sell sometimes, right. And it’s sometimes it’s hard, you know, and it’s really difficult for us as lawyers, when the media and the marketplace are saying you don’t need a lawyer, you do it yourself. Right. Michael Renfro  5:58   And that’s what people don’t understand is all that is, is their marketing to sell their product so that you come to buy them, it doesn’t mean, and I’ve been trying to tell this people, I’ve been trying to tell this to people for years, just because they’re saying it’s the truth does not mean it’s the truth. And they don’t have to speak the truth in order to have a legitimate commercial air. Right? Because it’s opinion based, then there’s a lot of leeway. And I know you understand what I mean by that. Oh, sure. I can tell everybody DeAnn Chase  6:23   the best. Yeah, but you know what, we can’t get around. And here’s the thing, we can’t get around the fact that 4 million, you know, the recent commercial set of 4 million people have started their business on a particular online DIY legal resource. And, and really, for me, and many lawyers that I know we say well, okay, there’s 4 million people that have a lot of issues in front of them. And they really need to kind of work with a lawyer to figure out all the mistakes and all the things that are missed, and in doing it themselves. But we as lawyers, I really feel we need to stop trying to trying to fight, you know, kind of fight against some of the things that we just can’t anymore where I mean, yeah, they can clearly they’re trying to sell their their product, but you know, what people are buying their product. And we as lawyers need to we need to be innovative and creative. Michael Renfro  7:20   I think there’s ways you could use it. And what I mean by that, you know, I did it, I did that, like I said, I’m actually doing two new projects right now. And this time, I’m actually using an attorney to form my LLC, I don’t want to go down the hard roads of not knowing the right answer when it comes to filling out that that daunting form. Right. And what I can tell you is, it seems like there would be a way I think one of the innovative ways that might work for attorneys in general, right is maybe try to find a partnership with some of these companies that are doing it where, you know, because here’s what happened, I’ll just give you an example, when you have a problem like that. And let’s say you use one of those big names. Well, the first place you’re gonna go to, if you have a problem is that big name that you originally got the paperwork, you know, and it seems like they could, there will be a potential there for having a partnership where somebody comes back, and they would have an attorney in that area, as well as that geographical area where those people are. So it really could give them the opportunity, in my opinion, to have like a whole network of attorneys that are working with them instead of working against one another. And you’ll I have found this throughout life when I worked with the people I thought was competition. My business didn’t double didn’t triple but quadrupled every time I joined up with what I thought was a competitor in one way or another. DeAnn Chase  8:42   Yeah, you know, I think that that is that’s really something that we as lawyers need to keep in mind. I mean, we aren’t we’re lawyers, right. So we’re control freaks, and we’re very competitive. And lawyers are very much I know, what a surprise, right? I mean, what a surprise. So it just kind of goes to just show that, that we as lawyers do kind of have a certain hesitancy about about, you know, reaching out and working with others that, you know, that we would consider to be competitors. Yeah, even like, you know, people who are practicing the same practice areas as there’s still kind of this, there’s Michael Renfro  9:24   always room for partnership. I have found though, and you know what, what I mean by that is, let’s say you find somebody who’s like a direct competitor for you, right in town, there may be a couple of things that they really do incredibly well. And then there’s some things that you do incredibly well, but you know, they’re it’s more of a balance thing where you can, at times, either share a client, or inevitably even trade a client like this is going to fit much better for you. And you know, of course, that does take a lot to work. You have to have someone on the other side. You know, that obviously sees the same business fit in the same value of what you’re bringing to the table. And, you know, I know that most people don’t always share those thoughts. But I truly believe that and kind of that old adage, make your make your enemy your friend, because you’ll actually find out that there’s, there’s more benefit to that. And I don’t mean in a bad way, I don’t mean to underline it, you know, like, how do I say in a backdoor kind of way, but to get to know them? You know, one thing I firmly believe is that most people that we consider may be enemies or not like us, if you actually talk to those people, you’re still more than 70 75% in common with us, you’re a human. Right. It’s just a few key differences that kind of keep us apart. But I think, you know, here’s the thing. You’re saying that. And, you know, you’re a young and upcoming attorney. And I mean that because you’re not nearly as old as some of the folks that talk DeAnn Chase  10:46   to? Well, I’m holding my age. Well, well, I have been practicing law for 25 years. So I’m a 96. Law grad? Michael Renfro  10:56   Well, fair enough, still, you know, you still got probably 20 years left. And that means influence the, you know, the generation coming up. If more attorneys thought like you, there would probably be more and better collaboration amongst the amongst the arena. DeAnn Chase  11:13   Yeah, I mean, I do think that lawyers have to change, they have to change their frame of reference. I mean, they really have to step out of the traditional law firm structures and models and think creatively and yeah, and work together. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I do truly believe that a lot of lawyers are becoming almost becoming obsolete, in the face of these gigantic, you know, media companies, and what have you. And so, and a lot of us, you know, I’m on, you know, member of local bar associations, and listservs. And talking with other lawyers, and lawyers, you know, kind of grumble amongst themselves about how bad it is for the public at large. But it’s really up to us to change our ways. And it’s like an example, is, it’s just basically, you know, that hourly billing model that so many of us are tied to, and I’m gonna like a, Hey, I’m as guilty as any other you know, I’m running my law firm, I’m an entrepreneur myself. But that hourly billing model is really, really difficult for for our clients, and so Michael Renfro  12:19   slightly outdated in today’s drama sphere, in many ways. Now, I won’t say every single practice area, but definitely some lend itself to be let go of more than others, DeAnn Chase  12:30   more than others. And can I say that I think that that is something that’s kind of been ingrained to us man, I say, as a baby lawyer, you know, I was billing in six minute increments. And frankly, I still do, you know, I still have a component to my practice that is hourly. But I’ve really been striving to create, you know, recurring revenue models that provide benefit to obviously to me from a business perspective, but to the client to show they have certainty of knowing you know, how much things are going to cost, because that’s what they want to know how much it’s going to cost. And so the lawyer, the benefit of some of the programs that I’ve created, is, we also don’t have to keep track of our time in six minute increments. And we don’t have to send that invoice for you to write and wait for the client to come back and say, oh, you know, I didn’t realize I thought it was simple, I didn’t realize you’re going to spend that much time. And we were only on the on the call for five minutes, not six minutes, and you know, different things like this. So. So I’ve really been working to create these programs for business clients that that provide certainty and their cost and also kind of helps on the administrative side of the law practice. Michael Renfro  13:43   No, I, I can totally see that. And I’m a fan of the newer model that really started and I won’t mention them by name, I don’t even think they’re their original name anyway. But the model that started back in the 90s, where you pay a low monthly fee and have access to attorneys, their information, if you need them for a case, you already have discounted rates, right? I that model is continuing to become more and more attractive to me, for both sides. One you have a fixed costs, and know that only when you know something truly arises, are you going to spend more but you’re not going to spend what you would have if you were not consistently paying this fixed costs and had that relationship in place. So and for the attorneys, you know, like you said, it’s less stressful. And also, it also in my opinion, opens up for the attorney to truly care more about their clients that they’re talking to rather than the time that they’re talking to them. DeAnn Chase  14:41   No, it’s true. That’s another thing with with the traditional hourly model is it really does interfere with the attorney client relationship. Right? Because it’s thinking about it. Yeah, I mean, well, and here’s the thing. I mean, if you’re billing you know, your I say it’s like getting in a taxicab and kind of watching that watching the movie err, right? As opposed to a lot of us, you know, we, you know, we’re what have you we get in the car, it’s on our credit cards, we’re not watching the time tick. So for for lawyers and their clients, what happens is, is if you’re billing by the hour, then your client knows that and so they talk fast, and they don’t want to talk about their kids and things because they just how many times? Yeah, I mean, how many times have I heard? Oh, you know, I talked to my lawyer, and then they billed me for the time when they were talking about their kids or soccer games, or what have you, you know, or I’ve had been on a call with a client say, Okay, I have three things to talk about. 123. Michael Renfro  15:35   Right. That it takes the it allows you to be informal with these folks get to know them better serve them. Right. Because I mean, I think I get the feeling that you kind of agree on the concept to that, like the original concept of attorneys was to serve. Right. And a lot of attorneys I think, I think lose that like the same way with police, you know, for instance, right? The old adage was to protect and serve, and you don’t really see that necessarily as much or feel it as much from I should say modern day police and all attorneys and I don’t mean that in a bad way to you. I’m just being you know, with what I see. And and I have a lot of attorneys speak on that notion to their like, you know, I try to DeAnn Chase  16:17   Yeah, I mean, I’m okay, I’m married to a cop, full disclosure. But it’s just but it’s a similar idea of you know, people generalize all cops are bad. All lawyers are scum Michael Renfro  16:30   and all salesmen. By the way, we’re all car salesmen. It doesn’t matter what we sell what we sell, we’re car salesmen. It doesn’t matter what practice area you are, you’re ambulance chaser. There’s these things that go with, you know, and nowadays, if you’re a cop, then you’re obviously somebody who beats everybody. DeAnn Chase  16:47   Yeah, and it’s just like anything. The, the, you know, kind of the vast number of lawyers are really concerned, you know, we do you know, strive for integrity and compassion, follow our ethical rules. And, you know, and shout out for the cops out there who put their lives on the line every day, are they you know, they’re out there literally taking bullets and on this on our streets, and they are really and you know, they’re looking to protect the victims and their families and find justice. So but, but unfortunately, it’s those bad apples out there. Michael Renfro  17:21   Literally, you took the I was literally gonna say it only takes one freaking bad apple. Because it nowadays, that’s that saying is never more true than it is today. Because one bad incident blows up into a viral video, literally, depending on how bad it is. Within hours, two minutes. Yeah, it’s true. I am blown out of proportion, I might add, because there’s one thing I try to remind my I have nothing but boys, God did not bless me with any girls, probably because he knows who I am. But I do have five boys that call me dad. And one of the things I preface to them, since I can remember is that there’s two sides to every story. And you have to remember that, like, you really have to remember that when you’re not you personally, by the way, but whenever anybody’s upset or when you know, I’m feeling angry, I try to remind myself, hey, there’s another side to this story. And I’m not obviously experiencing that side. But it also means that, you know, I have to take into account what they’re feeling, what they’re seeing what and how they’re reacting. You know, I think the more we do that, in general, and remind ourselves that there’s as simple as it is two sides, then you come back to DeAnn Chase  18:34   Okay, all right, and well, and I think that’s why really, so many of our clients want to work with a lawyer. I mean, they want they said, Look, if money were no object, yeah. Right, they would want to know that, that there’s someone on their side. But, um, but a lot of times, you know, it’s really it comes down unfortunately to cost. You know, and, you know, and, and, you know, you can as a lawyer, you know, you’ve got a brand new lawyer, for example, may start up a practice just down the street. They basically say, oh, you know, I’m cheaper because I don’t have the same amount of overhead or what have you. Well, as a lawyer with 25 years experience, I say, well, that’s, that’s fine, but that lawyer is going to take three hours to do something I can do in five minutes that that lawyer may spend two hours researching an issue that I already know the answer to because I’ve been practicing so long. So Michael Renfro  19:34   a lot of it comes down to experience to it doesn’t matter that I might be cheaper. What am I getting? You always have to look at what what are you getting for that money? There’s a reason that it’s something is less than something else. There’s always a reason. Absolutely. No, I I completely concur on that one. And I also will say, it’s really true with everything I deal with that. And, you know, not to mention what I do, but I deal with that. Even in the partners that I take in, in my job where, you know, someone will outbid me and I’m like, Yeah, but what are you getting for that? How much experience do they have? And is their experience specific to what you’re trying to do? Right? Because I taught like, just for instance, SEO is SEO. And a lot of people think it’s the same for any type of business. And that’s far from the truth. Just in the simplest of terms, it really is not the truth, every business has to be done and taken a little bit different laws. One of the biggest ones, nine particular Yeah. What do you think has been in that? In that frame of mind? What do you think would be slamming sure I add as this correction, or act as this correctly, looking at both a pitfall maybe or a mistake, a challenge, whatever you want to call it, right? What do you think was the one that you learned from most that in turn, not only you learned from most, but gave you the most traction and had the best result on the back? That makes sense? DeAnn Chase  21:00   Well, let’s see. I think as far as what has given me the most traction, I’d say, what has given me the most traction, and particularly from an advertising and marketing perspective is reaching out to your local community. Right? At a local Yeah, being being almost hyperlocal especially, uh, you know, and you’re, though you’re the marketing guy that can talk about SEO and different things like that, but, but on my end of things, what I found where I got the most traction, particularly, for example, when I was first starting my law firm, I put an ad in our local publication. And I would, I would get so many people that would call me from that publication, or if I was out in the community, and someone say, Oh, I know you from after why. And then we realized that was from that ad. So after a while, I’m like, Okay, do you read this local, you know, in the South Bay speech border, and that’s, oh, that’s it, you know. So what I what I would recommend is, you know, joining your local chamber of commerce, and, and really, really tightening up, you know, volunteer for community organization and show that you care about people and you care about your community. So for me, I think that that is what has given me the most traction. I think, when I’ve been growing my law practice is really whenever I’ve really reached out locally. Awesome, thank you. Michael Renfro  22:23   What would you say your proudest moment is then? DeAnn Chase  22:28   Well, my proudest moment is actually something that a lot of like people who are not legal, probably wouldn’t get as much. But basically, you know, it’s hard to describe, but basically, you know, I handled a case from when I’m when I was handling when I was doing insurance defense, when I was a litigator. From the time that complaint came in, I defended a lawsuit, I prepared motion for summary judgment, I got denied. And then I prepared all the appellate documents, and I filed, you know, for read, the writ was accepted. I prepared all the appellate documents, I argued it before the appellate court, and I got an opinion, a published opinion, where the court basically remanded it back to the trial judge to to basically order summary judgment in favor of my client and say, my client in six hours. But um, yeah, so that’s kind of like, you know, my dependent. Michael Renfro  23:29   I mean, I get it, like you handled it, from the moment the call came in, all the way to its volition and essentially got what you were fighting for. Yeah, in the end, the client DeAnn Chase  23:39   was literally saved millions of dollars. But what I’m, what I’m proudest about, I think, is that I handled it through that, you know, we as lawyers, we specialize sometimes, you know, so much. So, I handled that case through just being a general litigator, coming into a case to handling the appellate documents. And, you know, so a lot of times, we will say, Oh, that’s an appellate lawyer does that or litigator does goes off to somebody else, right. But, but then I’d say the second second most proud moments, really, of my career, or when I have someone, like I run into, you know, a business owner in a local chamber event, or the grocery store, or whatever, and they’re like, this is my lawyer, you need to call the and this is my lawyer. Right? And that’s, anytime that happens, and it and it happens, you know, that I’d say is something I’m really, really proud of, is for me, and for, you know, for our law firm. It’s really about the relationship with the client and not just okay, we’re going to help you through this transaction, and then off you go. Michael Renfro  24:38   No, I completely hear that where it’s what what I’m hearing that you’re proud of, is the fact that someone is not pointing you out, not saying you’re there. It’s the way they’re saying it like you need to meet this person. They’ve done me nothing but justice. This is my attorney. Right? Yeah, I could, I could see how that I’ve had a few moments like that in sales. I can just say that and those have been some of the most proud, you know, some of my proudest moments were that I thought you were gonna go a different direction, just so you know, I thought you were gonna come back and tell me how your your past clients have, you know, you run into them. And they’re like, oh, I want to tell you how much you meant to me, which I’m sure you have those two. Those have been for me, I can tell you some of the practices when? How do I say it? I’ve convinced somebody who really didn’t want to give me that try. And then they go ahead and give me that try. And then three years later, they’re like, man, one of the best decisions I ever made was giving you the opportunity. So that yeah, that sounds like it’s probably very similar to that very much. What’s some of your daily rituals that you would find most important for a typical day? DeAnn Chase  25:45   So, um, I think it’s really for me, it’s about controlling my calendar, it is so easy to become overwhelmed. So um, so what I do, and from a scheduling perspective is I and I have, you know, have an assistant that handles on Well, number one, I have an assistant that handles all my calendaring. That’s the biggest lawyers do not handle your own schedule, your delegated. Don’t Answer your phone, phone, and don’t enter your own schedule. But anyway, but um, so what I do, though, is I don’t book anything before 10am. Gotcha. And so you know, and last, you know, there’s always the exception of someone’s you know, there’s always Michael Renfro  26:25   the exception. There’s always the same rule. I don’t look anything before 10am. Everything before 10 is internal catching up, is planning my day, all that kind of thing. I don’t want to deal with a new client or even an old client or potential client. DeAnn Chase  26:37   Yeah. So yeah, so that’s, that’s one thing is I don’t I don’t schedule anything before 10am. And for the most part, I try not to accept calls or kind of things that jump onto my calendar, you know, so if someone calls or I get an email saying, oh, you know, I want to talk to you, or what have you. I’ll usually say, you know, tomorrow or the next day, I usually, really do try to you know, I spend that the time in the morning is kind of, you know, one of the things they say not to do is check your email, I always check my email, I check my social media, check my email, I make sure there’s no emergencies. You know, it’s like you sometimes you have to do what works best for you. But I spend the time in my morning getting ready for my day, check my calendar, you know, can I wear my jeans today? Right? And then I don’t I don’t get let it get off track by Oh, I have a you know, a call that just and it’s an emergency is one thing. But like, just because someone wants to just to catch up or a client has a question. That’s not necessarily urgent. And, you know, Michael Renfro  27:39   they find it urgent, DeAnn Chase  27:40   but it’s right, well, everything. But here’s the thing. Everything is urgent to them. Michael Renfro  27:45   Oh, that was literally what I meant. Like, yeah, they will find it urgent, because they need to know right now. DeAnn Chase  27:53   Well, but you but again, that’s you as a as a business owner, and lawyers or business owners, you need to control the expectation. That’s right. Not everything is an emergency, I say, I want my clients to feel like they’re my only client. But they’re not my only client. And the way that you do that is you control the expectation. You know, as a lawyer, I don’t respond to I, again, I can’t help myself from looking at the email. But I don’t respond to emails, usually after 5pm. And I don’t I don’t respond to emails on the weekends. Because I really am trying to kind of control the expectation of the client. I don’t give my personal phone number, like I saw on one of these business things. Oops, and was like, do you put your cell phone? You know, on your business card? Hell no. I don’t take calls on my cell phone. And if I do I say, hey, you know, just just for future reference, if you could just, you know, reach out to me through my through the law office, because that way, that’s the way you’re gonna get the quickest, crisper future Michael Renfro  28:55   reference lose this number. Totally, totally. Yeah. Don’t make me have to change it. DeAnn Chase  29:04   Right. You know, I mean, because people are like, you know, a track that daily rituals, people are like, Oh, no, I meditate or I do this thing. I don’t do that. But Michael Renfro  29:13   we actually share a lot in common error. What I mean by that is I, you said something I just want to point out, yeah, I’ve always found that my mantra mo for success has been, I see what the most successful person is right. And that always means that there’s rules and processes to follow and all that good stuff. But what I found is that breaking the rules is my best. My best avenue towards success because I stand out and when I’m doing things differently, doing things differently, even down to the things that maybe my potential partners or workmates, whatever the case may be, don’t even see. It’s the fact that I’m doing all these little things differently and not the norm. That I continue to believe because it hasn’t, you know, the more I follow suit with that, and the more I have to say take ownership of that. concept and being different. Yeah, I was successful I continue to become so DeAnn Chase  30:04   now it’s true. I mean, I think it’s important to know kind of what the standards are. But then Michael Renfro  30:10   you work your own, then you find your skill. DeAnn Chase  30:12   Yeah. But it’s ultimately you’re right, you have to do what works best for you. You can’t, you can’t try to fit into someone else’s mouth. Michael Renfro  30:19   It’s like that old, I know, You’ve had the conversation where someone’s says this to you, or maybe you’ve even said to them, Look, you know, I’m gonna give you this experience, take what you like, and leave the rest behind, you know, because what works for you works for you. And there’s no way that what works for the world works for everybody in the world. And that’s one of the things where I get tired of here, like, this is what works for everybody. You can’t say that about anything. Because I can give you five examples out of my personal friends and family that break every rule that everybody ever says this is what works for everybody. Right? You know, again, it comes back to what works for you. And finding your way within the existing process, I think is what you know, I usually do myself. DeAnn Chase  31:00   Yeah, absolutely. I’d say something else that does work for me, though, is that I do take, like, at least I try, I try at least quarterly to take a personal retreat. And that can be like, literally, it could be like taking an afternoon or a day or something like that. But I think it is really, really important for us to keep the big picture in mind. I think sometimes we get so sucked into the day to day of our practice and our clients. Like you said, every client feels like their situation is urgent. But I’m different. But But yeah, I mean, but as business owners, we need to take control over time. And we need to keep in mind, you know, you know, I mean, you you may understand this, but sometimes it’s one of the hardest questions is, you know, what do you want? Right? What do you want? Like, where do you want to be at the end of the day? What do you what are you spending all this time and your practice for Michael Renfro  32:02   all this all this is not just to have a practice, there’s something that’s why I always tell people when I they always, when you ask somebody what they’re doing something for in sales, right? Many times the the answer is that they’re doing it because they want more money, particularly marketing, right? Yeah. And a lot of folks will take that first answer and be like, okay, great, you need more money, and they don’t ever talk about it. It’s never more money. That’s what actually people don’t understand is money is the program, the answer that you give, to hide the pain of what that money is going to do. And to give you a for instance, just a quick example, a guy used to sell training for it, folks, right? And so I asked the guy, I was like, you want this certification? Because you’re You said you want to get an extra $10,000 A year and this certification will absolutely do that for you. Right? He’s like, Yeah, I was like, what are you gonna do that 10 grand, I’m gonna put an extra room on there. Again, some people would stop there, I’m gonna put an extra room on the house seems like a worthy reason, right? No pain in that. I ended up asking him enough questions to find out that his mother in law was moving in and six months, and he does not want to talk to this one. Simply put, I use this example over and over, because the reality is the pain that I need to concentrate on and that I needed to know about in order to get him the training he wanted and needed was that he doesn’t want to deal with his mother in law and wants a copacetic relationship when they when she moves in with him, his wife and his family. DeAnn Chase  33:26   Right? Well, do you think also just taking it to the point of, particularly, you know, attorneys, with families and kids and that sort of thing, right? Where we work so hard, because we want to give our kids the best education and those families. But then what happens is sometimes we’ve worked so hard that we’re not spending time with our kids at all. Amen. And you know, the time just goes by so fast. And so that’s really something that was important to me. And that’s kind of why I stepped off partnership track in the big law firm and started my own firm, is I said, Look, I want to go to this the key, I want to drop my kids off from school, I want to pick them up, I want to go to their little programs in the middle of the day, and be able to control our time. So I want Michael Renfro  34:10   to be the parent that says I’m going to be there and always you’re looking and they’re not there. DeAnn Chase  34:15   And I mean, look, we can’t all have the luxury, right? Everybody down, but I do think that we need to I really do believe that, that we could have every waking breathing moment of our life sucked into our law practice, we can always be thinking we can always be working on something for a client, but we really need to step back and take take that take our time take control of our time and say, you know, I don’t you know, just create a rule. I don’t take you know, my kids soccer practices on Wednesdays are my kids games are on Friday afternoons. I just don’t take appointments after two o’clock on Fridays period. You let your staff know. I don’t take appointments after two o’clock on Friday. And guess what? They don’t book you. And you go to the game and you don’t Don’t be checking your and I guess I’m really, I’m kind of on a rampage about this right now, because I just sent my youngest off to college. So I’m a proud mom, I’ve got junior at UCLA, and my son might, he’s gonna be playing baseball at LMU. So I’m really just kind of at that point where I look back over the past 15 years where I’ve had my law practice. And I’d have to say, I took the time I set the rules, I said, I’m, you know, I just, I’m just not available, the company doesn’t need to know that you’re going to your kids soccer game, Michael Renfro  35:39   nobody’s gonna know you’re not available, you just need to be able to turn it DeAnn Chase  35:43   off. It’s just not available after two o’clock on most, Michael Renfro  35:47   how many attorneys are available all the time? In fact, that should be the common thread that most of the time you’re fighting to get on that attorneys DeAnn Chase  35:53   calendar. Right, exactly. Yeah. And don’t worry if your lawyer is always available for Michael Renfro  35:58   you. Yeah, if your lawyers or if your lawyer is always there answering the calls and talking to you when you need them. You should seriously consider why. Why that is? Why. Yeah, I called it 11 o’clock at night thinking I’d leave a voicemail. Tom, why are you? DeAnn Chase  36:20   Well, there is something to you know, being a little hard to get, right. You know, write it. You know, Michael Renfro  36:26   it’s called Building a mistake, right? I mean, if you keep a little bit of mystique to you, and still let people in you, and you can do that, look, I love you, I enjoy our time, I’m sorry that I can’t answer the phone every time and be on every call that you’d like me to be on. But unfortunately, guess what, I have this whole other life with work and a whole bunch of other clients. And I do have kids and a family that I also take care of. So I’m trying to balance all that stuff and hope you understand this consumer. And most of them quite DeAnn Chase  36:51   frankly, that’s TMI. I just say, understand available. Michael Renfro  36:55   Oh, yeah, don’t put an attorney you can do that I I’m a little bit different. And what I mean by that is I’m very transparent. And as a salesman, you know, I feel like the more transparent I am, the better considering our bad rap that we get as a profession. So I just tell them, and I let them know, like, Look, I’m a family man, being that I work with only attorneys Put yourself in my position that actually works out well, because then the attorney comes back, almost inevitably, and says, Oh, man, I totally get it. You know, I got my family. I got this thing. I’m trying to balance things myself. Thank you. And I give you a lot of kudos for saying that that’s what I’ll get most DeAnn Chase  37:27   often. Yeah, no, that’s true. That’s true. And salespeople and attorneys. Usually, people are going to presume and assume the worst. Michael Renfro  37:37   Yeah. And we, you know, we’re both very similar, actually, in many, many ways. You know, we’re both highly good at debating highly good at influencing people, persuading people to see it their way, right. I mean, that’s kind of, especially if you’re talking about a litigator. That is their whole mantra, I’ve got to convince at either this judge three 610 to 12 people, whatever the case may be of my position, right? Yep. Here’s a quick one. What’s the craziest thing you’ve ever done? Doesn’t matter if everybody knows just what’s the craziest thing that Dan has ever done? I don’t really want to say no, fair enough. How about this one? DeAnn Chase  38:16   I’d say starting my own law practice seemed crazy. At the time, my husband sure thought I was crazy. Michael Renfro  38:20   How about what how about this one? What’s a strange Quirk? Or maybe a strange habit, if you will? Or maybe just a hobby that you do? It doesn’t have to be strange, right? But something that you do that maybe not everybody knows? DeAnn Chase  38:34   Well, I’d say, Well, I just, I’ve been trying, you know, at this stage, I’ve turned 50 You know, I kind of hit that corner and kids off to college. So Michael Renfro  38:43   my 19 What are you 72? Are you 1972 7070 Okay, so you got me by a little bit. I was gonna give you a congrats on the year there. Just so you know, I celebrated in love. I absolutely. I’m not kidding. I’m not just saying it. So people think it. I have social channels. I love the fact that I turned 50 I thought it was one of the most amazing days of my life. Please go it was a little scary DeAnn Chase  39:07   for me. But but one of the point being is so I’ve really tried to so I’ve made a concerted effort to to find activities, frankly, that I kind of forgot about. I’m trying to show my creativity. Yeah, cuz I got too busy. But um, so I so what I’ve really been spending time on is I like to go and take photographs of flowers. Michael Renfro  39:30   You and my wife we get along great. DeAnn Chase  39:34   Botanical Garden. Yeah. I’m just on my iPhone, take pictures of flowers. And then I’ve been trying I’ve never had an art class but I’ve been trying to paint Michael Renfro  39:46   it either drawing or painting. I could see what you were gonna do. You take the same pictures that you took and then try to reproduce them in a pay. Yeah, DeAnn Chase  39:54   I’ll take a picture and then I’ll you know kind of set it there and then try, try and I try use the word to recreate the same thing that’s in the photograph on the canvas. Sounds Michael Renfro  40:07   awesome, though. That’s all. Yeah. Yeah, well here, here’s an easy one for you. Just a couple more. And then we’re almost done. So where are you from? And what was it like growing up there. DeAnn Chase  40:17   So I’m originally from Northern California. And, but my dad worked for General Motors. So I came from a very blue collar background, my dad worked on a lot assembly line and General Motors, my mom drove a school bus. And, and then when the the General Motors plant closed, in Northern California, Fremont and I, my dad got transferred to Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. So I moved to Oklahoma City, Oklahoma at the beginning of my eighth grade year. And it was total culture shock. And then, and then my parents separated beginning of my senior year. So I started a new senior year back in Northern California. But I was there long enough to get in state tuition for UC Berkeley? So Oh, yeah. So I went to I went to Cal and studied rhetoric. It’s like, what do you do with a degree in rhetoric from Berkeley go to law school. So yeah, so that was my, my upbringing was very, very blue collar, you know, you work for white people yet? And, Michael Renfro  41:27   yeah, actions speak louder than words. That’s that. That’s kind of one of my mantras in my world. Here’s one for you. So it’s kind of a dual prong. What is your favorite podcast and your favorite conference? DeAnn Chase  41:44   I actually don’t listen a whole bunch to podcasts. But the ones that I do follow are marketing, marketing, you know, different Michael Renfro  41:57   entrepreneurial based for the more like to, I get it. DeAnn Chase  42:01   Yeah, entrepreneur podcasts, you know, marketing, you know, memberships and lead generation and social media and all that kind of stuff. So I kind of like that stuff. Yeah, and as far as conferences go, I like to go to conferences, usually where there are other business owners. And Michael Renfro  42:19   and just for that marketing side kind of thing, learning the how to get more. Yeah, learning DeAnn Chase  42:24   either. Yeah, learning how to, to get more business. But then also, while I’m there sharing experiences with other with other business owners, oh, yeah, the lawyers, but there are usually some lawyers there as well. But Michael Renfro  42:39   yeah, when I go to those, I want to reset agree again, I love doing those because, again, one of the things that keeps me doing what I do and doing what I consider doing well, is that I can never stop learning, I feel like the day we stop learning is the day we stopped living. And so when I go to conferences like that I’m usually looking to not only I mean, I know that I’m going to share my experience because I don’t stop talking. And I have to get the gab I don’t shut up. But I try to tell myself, I have to remind myself, as soon as somebody is engaged, I’ll have to stop and be like, Hey, man, enough about me? What have you found to be the most you know, and just ask them because I won’t shut up. But I want to find out. Because every time I meet anybody that’s in you know, whether it’s long, or marketing or somehow, you know, a variation or offspring of it, there’s something to be learned and gain. DeAnn Chase  43:28   Always, always well, and I’m always trying to learn how to do things more efficiently. Right, yeah, you know, quicker, easier, faster. Automation Michael Renfro  43:37   is a is a beautiful thing. And delegation is a beautiful thing. You just have to know when and where to use them. DeAnn Chase  43:43   Right. Right. And delegation is really again, hard for us control freaks. Michael Renfro  43:47   Oh, yeah. I should have been an attorney, just so you know. DeAnn Chase  43:52   But again, I mean, we need to delegate we need and we need to just accept that it will not be done as well as if we had done it ourselves. But, Michael Renfro  44:01   okay, and it’s okay. DeAnn Chase  44:02   And it’s okay. And, and, and, you know, if you if you allocate an hourly value to your services, then it does not make sense for you to be spending the value of that hour, you know, hit it doing a social media post or whatever, whatever, or doing your own billing of God forbid, lawyers are, well, they want to do so much stuff on their own. They want to write their own blogs and they want Michael Renfro  44:30   me I do content creation for you, folks. What if I write it Hey, man, I got no problem. But I’m going to need you to write like 4500 words a month minimum, because if I don’t put those up, then your site isn’t going to rake well because it’s not consistent content. I’ll get them to you. And they don’t know because they don’t have the time. They don’t have the time to do everything they want to put on their calendar, Nor should the inertia on that. Like you said, we boast that delegation is it’s one of the best thing Yeah, terney can learn to do. DeAnn Chase  45:02   I know I’m preaching to the choir here. But definitely it does not make sense for a lawyer to sit in front of a computer writing their own blogs, even if they think it’s fun and enjoyable. And by the way, the way they write them is sometimes too legal. For the marketplace, Michael Renfro  45:18   you can’t write legalese. To here’s here’s two facts that most attorneys don’t take into account. Number one, the average reading level is between ninth and 11th. There’s debate on that, but somewhere between ninth and 11th grade, so not even a full High School worth of right, even on the highest end. DeAnn Chase  45:37   This trick, actually, yeah. Michael Renfro  45:40   Yeah, what most people don’t know, furthermore, is that there’s not human eyes reading your content anymore. As far as the ranking, it is a piece of AI that is, at best on a fifth grade level. So if your content goes much beyond fifth grade level anymore, you stand a chance, particularly in the legal world of not ranking well, because Google doesn’t know what the heck you’re talking about. You cannot have eyes on every website anymore. So they had to build a piece of AI that literally reads the site, seconds, right and deciphers it. But all that sounds great. And until you remember that this is a fifth grade level. They haven’t even gotten out of elementary school yet. Right? Yeah, no, that’s DeAnn Chase  46:22   really interesting. Yeah, really interesting statistics. That, like I said, I just I just learned some things. But just Yeah, but just substantiates. I mean, look, I was a rhetoric major in college. And I’ve always felt like I was a good writer, it’s like, that was always my strength. But Michael Renfro  46:40   right up, I can write that I should not be DeAnn Chase  46:43   writing my own blocks now. Michael Renfro  46:45   And if I may interject this two times, the attorneys don’t know how to put the keywords in the way that they flow the best, if you will. So sometimes I’ve read articles by attorneys where all this looked great, but then it’s like, you almost just listed off keywords. DeAnn Chase  47:01   Yeah, either they rattle them off, or they stick them all in the bottom, but I can help you. When there’s a difference, and I guess it all comes down to though is knowing your market, right? Because some lawyers, they get their business from other lawyers. In which case, yeah, you’re gonna write an academic article at a very high level, why wouldn’t you write and you’re gonna, and you’re gonna try to get it published in like a legal publication, it’s gonna Michael Renfro  47:27   give you a lot of credibility, and somebody of you know, the higher, if that’s your market, potentially, then you want that to be out there? Well, we tell the same thing to people, I have a few guys that do, right. And I’m like, Look, you writing makes sense. You’re only trying to get a certain amount of cases, from Fortune 5000 companies. So the people that you’re trying to get to are all very well educated, sitting at the top of companies, you know, and chief positions. So you really have to, again, you cater to your market and your right to your market. Most attorneys, though, I will say, are trying to get leads Traditionally, when someone searches for their practice area, and they’re looking for that attorney. And when you’re doing that, that content, you know, but if you’re but like you say, if it’s really more of like a, what I call an online business card, right? That you really don’t, you could care less if it gets ranked, it’s really there for the people that talk to you and know you, that should almost always be pretty much, you know, produced by you, because that’s very intimate. Back and forth, right? Only certain people are going to see it, and really only the ones you want out of it. Yeah. DeAnn Chase  48:32   I mean, yeah. I mean, we can talk for years on this kind of stuff. But I mean, definitely, I mean, definitely, it’s important to be you. Right, and to make sure that so that’s always that fine line when you’re putting your content and this content out is that you want it to be you but you don’t want it to be you don’t need to do it, to make it convey. You know, it’s it’s it’s not easy to find somebody. Michael Renfro  48:57   What would you say? What would you say is your best piece of advice from a single mentor? DeAnn Chase  49:04   Well, from a single mentor, there was a wonderful man that many lawyers my nose named Steven Farrelly, Michael Renfro  49:12   say Stephen fairly, even fairly, fairly. DeAnn Chase  49:15   Yeah. And he, he passed away a few years ago. But um, but but so what he said is market like a specialist practice like a generalist. Because for me, I say I’m a generalist in a world of specialists, right. Lawyers are usually very specialized. And I have a law firm where I provide general counsel and so I’ve always struggled with, you know, you can’t be everything to everyone. So how do I conveyed to the, you know, to business owners, all the different types of legal services I can provide. And so I thought that was really great. Michael Renfro  49:55   I’m literally market like a specialist. Practice like it generalist Yep. I was trying to get a piece of paper as fast as I could. Words of Wisdom like as, like, Excuse me, like a generalist. DeAnn Chase  50:10   Yeah. So I mean, because we we as law firms, and we provide a lot of different services, but, but when we try to go out there and tell people, all the different things that we do, we just get, we just get lost in all the noise, Michael Renfro  50:25   they get overwhelmed to the folks on the other side can get overwhelmed if everybody’s you know, spouting off 1520 things that they’re good at. You know, and it really actually that the reason I wrote that down is that that Montrose, you could use that in in really, nearly any type of marketing. And what I mean by that is, you know, go in with a specialty that obviously set you apart as a master of your domain, but be willing to always open yourself to doing other things, because most of the time, what I’ve found is that even if we haven’t done them before, but they’re in our arena, we end up doing them quite well, it might have to spend a little more time the first time, but then I have a new door, I have a new bit of knowledge. And I haven’t knew, how do you say avenue that people can, you know, use me for that I’m going to now include in my marketing, but not in a direct way, right. And when I say including my marketing, that would be if someone writes me an email, and says, Hey, I see you specialize in this, but this is the case, hey, you know what, I actually just did a case like that. I know exactly what DeAnn Chase  51:24   we need to do. Right? No, it’s it’s yeah, it’s really true. And just, you know, they say you just need to the they say the dollars are in the niches or however they say that. riches in niches, riches in niches, there you go. And I guess it’s true to a certain extent, you know, it’s a matter of narrowing down yourself, you need to know who your audience is. Yeah. Right, which is basic rhetoric one on one is, who is your audience? And then, you know, where are they? And what are they reading, and you need to you need to speak to them. And sometimes if we’re speaking to too many people at one time, then we’re just, you know, I have a mentor. Now, that recently said to me, because I was talking to him about Facebook advertising. And I said, Well, I, you know, I’d like to do Facebook advertising, and any talked about really specializing down, you know, narrowing it down to who your ideal client is, and all that sort of thing, because he said, he used the analogy of, you’re in a big auditorium, and you’re on the, in the, in the corner, and you’ve got your, you know, maybe you have a bullhorn or not saying here. Right. And he compared that to like walking into, you know, a smaller room with, you know, more qualified people and saying, Here I am, you know, and but anyway, Michael Renfro  52:41   so no, no, I, I will give you this only if you’re starting to look at Facebook, you know, it’s a lot of attorneys, they hear all the great things about social, and there’s a lot of potential there for good things. But one thing to keep in mind, I only remind you this and remind my listeners, sure, it’s very rare that someone goes to Facebook, to find their attorney. However, what they will do and what what we have seen very, very be very advantageous to attorneys is being part of like groups. And what I mean by that is, this is really exactly what you’re talking about. Right? Yeah. Right, if you’re just on Facebook, saying all this, nobody is going to hear. But if you’re on Facebook, and you become a part of let’s say, a sewing group, or you become a part of a skiing group, or you become a part of a film group, right, because that’s your interest, and you go with your interest, because you can’t make this up, you cannot lie your way into their hearts. So you find something that is of interest to you. Go find that group. Only talk about that, but constantly remind them, hey, if you ever need this, I’m here for you, those people will reach out to you when the time is right. And when they feel comfortable. Because a it’s a roundabout way of letting them know, Hey, I’m an expert in this. I love skiing. Well, what about that mountain this past weekend wasn’t that, you know, it’s, it’s what we have found is the way to actually get lead conversion from Facebook and these other places. Otherwise, really, what you’re doing is mostly awareness, and really more of just an awareness campaign letting people know and kind of consistency. So it just doesn’t pay off the same way. But of course, your ads are much cheaper on Facebook, I’ll say that, because they’re not clicking through to a page where they’re, you know, filling out your your name. DeAnn Chase  54:23   Right, it is. But I’ve also heard it said that people are not going to Facebook to look for lawyers, right? They’re looking, they’re going to Facebook, and that’s just kind of on point with what you’re saying as well as they’re on. They’re on Facebook because you know, they’re they’re connecting with their family, their friends, they’re looking at, you know, some of their their social activities. So that makes perfect sense. If you have a ski group that in you just happen to be in there, then that’s, then that’s a better way to make contact. I mean, I don’t know as a lawyer. As a business owner, I still you know, I’m always trying to figure out the best you know, obviously just revisit who is my ideal client who do I work with the best Who am I trying to reach? And and then how you know and creating creating product, I’m creating legal products that serve like so for me, I’m trying to reach those 4 million you know, people so it’s a big a big pool right of those, those 4 million people that user an online DIY service. Right? Right. Oh, my So, but my ideal client is just one small subset of all those people who are ultimately business owners who want to make sure they do things the right way. Right. So, you know, they know if they use that type of service, they know that, that they know what they know that they don’t know, everything. And those, those are my, those are my clients. So but finding them is not easy. It’s not easy. Because it’s always it’s very hard to pinpoint, you know, who you are, who your ideal client is. And then once you do that, finding where they Michael Renfro  55:56   are, here’s a good idea. And I’ll leave it I’ll leave the conversation with this, but maybe writing some blogs on what do you do when, and you can obviously, with these blogs, I would name them by name, right? I’m not gonna do it now. But what do you do? What do you do when you use soy and soy.com? And shit doesn’t go well. Right. And I say that, because there’s so many different articles, you know, what I’m talking about, you can literally start them all off the same, you could have a series based on, you know, when you use the big houses, you know, these are some of the problems, you may, I would actually think about doing that, because I guarantee people are searching, it’s not going to be the highest searches, right? But when people do find you, they’ll probably end up finding that as well on your website and see, hey, this is what I’m going through, you know, I use these guys to start an LLC and nothing is going right, everything is a bumble F. And I really need to fix it. I wish I would have done this before. But now I found somebody who understands my pain, my problems, and they’re willing to help me even though I made the wrong decision in the beginning. DeAnn Chase  57:04   When I add that to my to do list, Michael Renfro  57:07   don’t have I don’t ever give anything away that I don’t find useful. You can take it or leave it. But I it’s something I would do. And it’s something I would tell my attorneys to do, quite frankly, if they were trying to, particularly when you’re trying to convey a message that a lot of people ignore. Right? Yeah, DeAnn Chase  57:24   because there’s so much noise out there. And that’s about trying to be here. Michael Renfro  57:28   Again, that Article Two, I haven’t seen a lot of attorneys doing it. It always works well, when you actually name a big house by name because you get you get automatic ranking power, whether you’re you know, like, so not to mention the fact that you’re also coming from a different angle, that hey, I know they say it’s going to be that maybe that’s a good one. Yeah, they say it’s going to be great when you use these. What do you do when it’s not? You know, or what’s next? Or what? Yeah, or I use them and I haven’t had any problems yet, but I’m really scared. Don’t know when to drop? Right? I don’t know that. I don’t know my next steps. And I can’t you know, nobody over there will tell me my next steps. Right? Oh, hey, listen, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining. Maybe we can think about having like a year from now we can do a follow up and see where things are with the firm now that it’ll be 16 years old. Sure. DeAnn Chase  58:23   I’d love to talk to you then. Yeah, Michael Renfro  58:25   thank you so much for stopping by. And with that said, everyone, I will see you on the next episode of 15 Minutes. Share your voice. Thank you. Outro  58:35   Thanks for listening to 15 Minutes. Be sure to subscribe and we’ll see you next time.